SEP
N(
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048.html
4 captures
21 Sep 02 - 29 Jan 07 II
AUG
◄
2001
21
2002
►
20
idrash 1 A R s
Thread Closed
~' l“l UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
Midrash
’ General
Pussified Nation (Page 1)
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 11 pages long: 123456789 10 11
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic: Pussified Nation
William Wallace □ posted 12 - 05-2000 08:52 am L23I 1121
II
Member We live in a completely pussified nation.
We could get every man, real man as opposed to pussified James Dobson knock-off crying
Promise Keeping homoerotic worship loving mama's boy sensitive emasculated neutered
exact male replica evangellyfish, and have a conference in a phone booth. It all began with
Adam, the first of the pussified nation, who kept his mouth shut and watched everything fall
headlong down the slippery slide of hell/feminism when he shut his mouth and listened to
his wife who thought Satan was a good theologian when he should have lead her and
exercised his delegated authority as king of the planet. As a result, he was cursed for
listening to his wife and every man since has been his pussified sit quietly by and watch a
nation of men be raised by bitter penis envying burned feministed single mothers who make
sure that Johnny grows up to be a very nice woman who sits down to pee.
So, Johnny hits youth group one day to hear from his pussified youth pastor that he should
perfect his virginity and dating skills. So Johnny tries to be a loving and patient man who
looks for a nice woman like mom who will whip him into shape and beat him into submission
so that he can one day join a men's accountability group and learn how to keep his urges
under control, which just causes him to be earn a B.A. in masturbation, M.A. in porno, and
PhD in knuckleheadology as Johnny is now so terrified of women and his own penis that he
sits in his room alone each night on the internet hoping to get some (with the occasional
"falling into sin" with a woman as they inevitabaly cross "boundaries" of intimacy) because
he's so afraid of women and has no idea how to take one, or love one, or serve one, or take
one to bed and make the Song of Songs sing again.
One day Johnny finally gives in to the pressure of his pre-humpers singles ministry and gets
stuck with some gai left on the shelf long after her expiration date that is just like dear old
mom who wants him to shut up like Adam, take his beating, and join a church men's group
that is really a woman's group in disguise complete with cookies and crying and
antidepressants to cope with the insanity.
Poor Johnny is by now so completely whacked that he's afraid of having kids and hold off his
taking on any more responsibility as long as he can because Johnny is a boy trapped in a
man's body walking around in a world of other boys all trying to keep their pee pee behind
their zipper and do just like their momma told them and be good women.
And so the culture and families and churches sprint to hell because the men aren't doing
their job and the feminists continue their rant that it's all our fault and we should just let
them be pastors and heads of homes and run the show. And the more we do, the more hell
looks like a good place because at least a man is in charge, has a bit of order and let's men
spit and scratch as needed. And all their whining and fighting is nothing more than further
evidence that we are still kings and unless we do our job everyone and everything is getting
screwed except Johnny (metaphorically speaking of course).
I know many of the women will disagree, and they like Eve should not speak on this matter.
And, many men will also disagree, which is further proof of the pussified epidemic having
hopeful
Member
ReformUrAss
Member
Butterfly
Junior Member
William Wallace
II
Member
A_Corinthian
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
now become air born and universal.
Pussified men are inarguably legion.
Nothing short of an exorcism is needed.
D posted 12-05-2000 12:22 PM LO] ^
IP: Logged
Yo Will,
man you gonna bust your aorta if ya keep going on like this. Try ta relax man.
Peace
D posted 12-05-2000 10:07 PM LJ31 □
WALLACE! WALLACE! WALLACE!
D posted 12-05-2000 11:33 PM LJ31
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
. . . I think I just met my future husband. Thanks, Wallace. . .
IP: Logged
D posted 12-06-2000 01:15 PM LO] O
Todays rant is in response to the insanities paining me today in this very moment of my
inner Fight Club. Scrolling through the rest of the midrash section it is obvious that the
pussification stock market has spiked at an all time high in recent months.
Can I be a gay Christian? In the infamous words of the now metaphysically challenged and
likely kindling ex-pentecostal pastor Sam Kinison "How can one man look at another man's
hairy ass and find love?" What an insane conversation. Every man knows you can't build
anything with bolts and bolts. Damn freaks. And the pastel cashmere wearing sensible
haircut clean shaven loafer wearing minivan driving suburban sympathizers contend "But
they really really love each other." I love dogs, but I don't stick my tongue in their mouth
and lobby congress for a tax deductible union. "But we need to be nice." What the hell for?
A man is free to knock boots with any sad hairy lump of clay desperate enough to climb in
the sheets and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that total depravity is an understatement,
but what the hell you want from me? Should we form some form of homo Promise Keepers
so we can all climb into a stadium and hug each other and cry like damn junior high girls
watching Dawson's Creek. I'd tell you to kiss my ass, but I'm afraid you'd take me up on it.
IP: Logged
D posted 12-06-2000 01:26 PM L£3
I have seen the light. No more calvin klien theology for me
D posted 12-06-2000 02:16 PM UI3 O ^
IP: Logged
Comrades, today we will continue our de-pussification war with the launching of the Manly
Man Award. As your self-appointed king I will of course decide who receives the Manly Man
Award, but like all good kings you subjects are welcome to post your nominations. However,
women are not allowed to post anyone except their husband or father and I will expect
ample evidence that they indeed are Manly Men. If you should, for example, make the
tragic mistake of nominating your husband because he does the laundry or some such thing
then I will immediately respond with a rant upon you and grant you the Foolish Female
Award.
IP: Logged
knowah □ posted 12-06-2000 02:41 PM LOl O
Junior Member
So much that was said was good, however, there was some that I will choose to respond to.
Before you call me a "pussified" male and disregard what I say, I hope you recognize the
circular logic in your reasoning making your statement that I am proof of the "pussified
epidemic becoming air born and universal" being a fallacious one.
Because the points I may or not disagree with you on are most likely a matte of preference
and style, I won't debate those with you, however, I will ask a few questions that you
perhaps have not considered.
Would you have considered Jesus to be "pussified"? Surely He displayed some of the
characteristics you decry. For example, his first miracle was to turn water into wine at His
mother's prompting. Jesus also didn't come out and publicly slam homosexuality and so
many other sins that were rampant in his day that you rant against with such fervor. Jesus
wept, Jesus allowed males to kiss him (Judas), etc. Do you consider Christ to be subject to
this epidemic that has now spread?
I believe I am correct in assuming that you love Ephesians 5:22-24, "Wives be subject to
your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ als is
the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is
subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything." But what
about the continuation of this in vs. 25-27, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also
loved the church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed
her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in
all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and
blameless." How did Christ love the church? The most obvious is that He gave up everything
for the church. Do you honestly think that He wanted to live with 33 years of pressure to
never sin, not even once? I know in my life I feel weary resisting temptation, and Christ no
doubt experienced much more temptation than I do (the stakes were higher with Him). Do
you honestly think that He wanted to die for an ungrateful bunch of sinners such as
ourselves? I get pissed when I do something for a kid in my youth group and he doesn't
appreciate it. Christ did that for us, but people blatantly turn around and spit in His face. Do
you think He wanted to turn the other cheek while being beaten? Do you think He really
wanted to let people take His name and then do horrible things in the name of God and
Christ such as the Crusades, slavery, the Holocaust, or so many other wrongs that have
been done in the name of Christ? All these things that Christ most likely did not want to do,
He did for us.
Many of the things you said are right on, but I want to ask, what are you doing to change
these things? It is easy to stand up on a soapbox and rant and rave about how men are
sliding into hell in a tampon box, but what is done about it. Any time that you feel so
passionately about something you should also put your money where your mouth is and act.
I have no clue what you are or are not doing in this area, but I would be interested to find
out. Action that produces results should be something beyond postings on a bulletin board
(where you are faceless) using inflamatory language and false reasoning.
Once again, you make some excellent points, but I would like to point out that Proverbs 15:2
says, "The tounge of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, but the mouth of fools spouts
folly." How acceptable are your words to others. I know of many less thick-skinned than I
who would find your posts offensive, regardless of the amount of truth in them or not.
Remember to couch your message in love, you may have all the wisdom in the world or be
right, but if you do not have love, you have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. How
loving is it to tell people to kiss your ass?
Just some thoughts brother. I'm not looking to pick a fight, although I think I may have just
picked one, but consider what I've said.
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
Member
knowah
Junior Member
William Wallace
II
Member
ReformUrAss
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12-06-2000 02:44 PM H iE □
Youth pastor?
Enough said.
IP: Logged
D posted 12-06-2000 02:47 PM L$31 =■
Not a youth pastor, but I do work with kids, hopefully in an attempt to help them grow up
and become de-pussified.
D posted 12-06-2000 02:49 PM [jHI □ ^
Then work with their fathers.
If they don't have a father, then help their mother get one.
D posted 12-06-2000 03:23 PM =0
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
I would like to submit my application for the award. Here it is,
-I drive a truck with 4 wheel drive
-I more hair on my chest then the Backstreet Boys have on their bodies
-I like my beer stout and never drink the yellow, fizzy crap
-I think football is a game where you dont get a yellowcard for giving another player a
bodyslam
-I prefer Jonathan Edwards over James Dobson
-I am a Youth Pastor but my kids are inmates in prison and usually can benchpress over
2bills
-My alaby for not having a girl is that i can't stand girls from SPU who can't watch R rated
movies
-I believe in Romans 3:4 - Let God be true and every man a liar
D posted 12-06-2000 03:27 PM
IP: Logged
Inspired by I Peter 3:1-7, Fight Club, Brave Heart, and American Beauty I have compiled the
rules for a secret men's organization that will not be publicly known for I fear that, like the
Elks, one day women will sue us and demand that they come and play our cards, eat our
wings, drink our ale, smoke our pipes and thereby ruin our lives. We will meet monthly at
undisclosed locations and no man will be allowed to speak about it to anyone, and
newcomers are only permitted to attend if they are sponsored by a member. Our charter
members are currenlty coming together quickly and we will convene after the new year. We
are not a self help group, accountability group, Bible study, or men's ministry. We are a
revolution.
We will combine the best of tobacco, ale, theology, repentance and headship. Our gatherings
will include both married and unmarried men. The unmarried men will in all likelihood be
emotionally beaten until they are strong enough to rise from the dead and thereby prove
their readiness to be like Christ to women and children in an effort to stop the fools parade
of weak self-up addicted unstudied undiscipled self-centered it's all about me and my
feelings so please don't make me sad and hurt 'cause I'm fragile and helpless and will flood
my pillow with tears "men". Funny enough, so far the biggest fans of the concept are
women who want manly men. Real men. Men who know what to do with a Bible, a woman,
and a life and have the courage to get their lazy shrink-to-fit butt off the couch and grow
up.
IP: Logged
A_' Corinthian □ post ed 12 - 06-2000 03:31 pm
Member
I nominate Abraham, "Father of the jews", for the Manly Man award. My reason??? Any man
at his age who circumcises himself (probably with a blade that wasnt too sharp), is a Manly
Man!!!! Any man who can still get it on with his wife at 100 years old; and have the super
God given sperm to water that barren desert, all without viagra is a Manly Man. Any man
who is willing to put God before family is a Manly Man.
IP: Logged
knowah
Junior Member
D posted 12-06-2000 04:58 PM LO] □ ^
William, you still have responded to the questions that I have asked. I would be interested to
see how you respond to them. Thus far you have shown that you are good at espousing
your beliefs and labeling people, now let's see how well you can reason out the questions
that I have asked. And before you discount them, remember that as iron sharpens iron, so
one man sharpens another. The purpose of these questions is to make you think and
sharpen you for battle. The entire purpose of this BB is not to just spout off your beliefs and
ignore those who don't agree with you. Check out the introductory page that explains the
purpose and method of midrash. "Learning is conducted in conversational community, with
disagreement and penetrating challenge directed at both student and teacher in an effort to
discover the truth together." Don't try and label me and think that you can dismiss my
thoughts because you disagree with them.
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12-06-2000 05:06 PM L£?l =■
"Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me." Job 38:3
Answer my four questions, and I will in totality answer yours.
1. Are you gay?
2. Are you married?
3. Were you raised in a single parent home?
4. How old are you.
IP: Logged
theslowlearner
Moderator
D posted 12-06-2000 05:11 PM L£3 O ^
Has anyone speculated that Mr. Wallace may actually be a woman incognito, trying to get a
message to the castrati of the world.
Also, is pussification a reversible disorder? As far as I know emasculation is irreversible.
IP: Logged
knowah
Junior Member
D posted 12-06-2000 05:26 PM L£! ^
William, interesting that you use something that God said in response to Job's line of
questioning. Unless you're God and I've completely missed something, how about you
answer the questions I asked you. I don't mean to lecutre you, but in polite conversation,
one person asks a question and the other person responds with a question. Until you
respond to the questions that I posed to you I'm not going to let you bash my upbringing,
age, or any other thing that I know you would just love to label me with so that you can
discount a view that is contrary to yours.
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12-06-2000 05:30 PM L£3 -=□
You asked a lot of questions. Most of them rhetorical. I answered what I felt was the only
legitimate one, and I answered it well. And, you painted Jesus to look like some quasi-homo
who never spoke against doing other guys, was kissed by another guy, always hung out
with other guys and was a really really nice guy who happened to be a divine momma's
boy.
And, in polite conversation you normally know a bit about the person you're speaking to so
you can best frame your responses. So, I'm extending a hand to get to know you. To best
answer your questions I'd need to know your frame of personal reference, including such
things as your age, whether you are single or married, and whether you think Jesus was the
sovereign Lord of the universe or a really hot guy.
IP: Logged
strawberrywine q posted 12-06-2000 10:43 pm LJ31
Junior Member
hallelujah! thank goodness that there are manly men out there! i have no idea when it came
into fashion to become the 'sensitive' and emasculated male but i, as a woman, think that it
is terrible and annoying, in a relationship especially, let me tell you, a woman does not need
or want a man playing a womans role, there is something to be said about a man who can
appreciate a woman because she is a woman and not because he can relate (because no
matter how sissy a guy is, he just can't relate), somewhere along the lines there it seems as
though the line between males and female was blurred, men are being dominated, and
many times submitting, to pressures by powerful women and as a result crazy things
happen, like this integration of the military? scuse me, what is that? i went in to try and join
the marines, yes indeed, the toughest branch of the military, mainly because they are the
only branch that knows where women belong and where men belong, now i'm not asking for
men to be total machismo freaks, but i think you have the right idea that men need to go
back to being just that, men. in the Biblical light, it is clear that men are supposed to be the
protectors, providors, elders, teachers, leaders, etc., while women are to submit, some men
take this to extremes (the beaters and abusers of the world) and i believe this may be part
of the reason men are afraid to hold claim to their masculinity, guys, there is a way to be a
strong male without abusing women, in fact, it is only the strong male who knows how to do
these things, the weak one is the one who has to assert his power in a domineering, hurtful
way. way to go guys for being proud that God chose you to be males and for choosing to
act as such, now if you have any ideas on how to spread this ideology to your fellow men,
please spill it!
IP: Logged
Porkfry
Member
D posted 12-07-2000 09:05 AM
Hey William.. ..Don't sugar coat it man. ...tell us how you really feel.
I will be honest that I have lived a "pussified" life for a while. Mainly because I am really
skinny and a strong wind can throw me around like a little sister. Thus giving me the feeling
that I am weak. Enter the "Pussified" part of my life. So what do I do? I start taking Martial
Arts. I will soon be taking 2 different styles. Now by the time I am a black belt in both I will
more than likely still get pushed around by a strong wind but I will be able to pull off some
cool lookin Jackie Chan Stuff as I fly down the street.
I wanted to agree with Wallice. Thats all. No long winded tyrade about why. ..I just agree.
Along the lined of weather I am actually "pussified" well I have 6 tattoos and I use steel wool
as a sponge when I take a shower. Every morning I start the day off with a large bowl of
broken glass mixed with thumb tacks (for flavor). I use a belt sander to cut my finger and
toe nails. I sleep on a bed of rusty nails and every night for dinner I eat a FAT steak with a
pint of Guinness.
Porkfry
IP: Logged
A_Corinthian
Member
D posted 12-07-2000 09:32 AM L2=?l
thats a man
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12-07-2000 02:20 PM LsLS O
Todays Manly Man award goes to the ancient Mesopotamian city of Ur Hippur where it is
believed the art of beer making was birthed 6000 years ago. In honor of this sacred event
the Manly Men have designated a new holiday, from this day forward December 10th will be
forever celebrated as Ur Hippur Day. Please feel free to take today off from work as a
religious holiday and celebrate accordingly by hoisting a pint, or more, in the spirit of
Ecclesiastes 9:7.
IP: Loaded
Rev. Tyler
Durden
Junior Member
D posted 12-07-2000 02:27 PM L$2I
You are not a unique snowflake It is time for the Rev. Tyler Durden to weigh in.
I have serious issues with your portrayal of Jesus by Knowah. First of all, Jesus didn't just
shut up and do what his mommy said. He told her "Dear Woman, why do you involve me?"
As for Jesus publicaliy denouncing homosexuality and many other sins: he didn't get that far
down the list. There is a myth out there that Jesus' primary concern is the american nuclear
family and the homosexuals who wage war against it. Jesus cares first and formost about
the Father getting his glory and the Pharisees and Jewish leaders were much more an afront
to that than homosexuals. Jesus weeping at the death of a very good friend is not a sign of
a pussified man. Even William Wallace cried when they killed his wife.
We seem to have this view of a compassionate, "always speaking in love", don't drink smoke
or chew or go with girls who do, Christ. Christ was very compassionate to
women, cripples, blindmen, beggars, leppars. Who he wans't compassionate to was all
pussified men who came to him as though they had all the answers. What about the ass-
kicker Jesus who cleared the temple or the guy who publicaliy berated the pharisees and
Jewish leaders with words like "whitewashed tombs" and "brood of vipers" (which I am
positive in their day would have been completely cussing them out).
An amazing portrait of Jesus for all pussified men is in Revelation. Jesus has fire in his eyes,
feet of bronze, a voice like rushing water and double edged sword coming out of his mouth
with which he wages war on idolitors, false gods and the sexually immoral. He rips the vast
majority of the church a new butt hole, lays waste to the nations of the world and judges all
the people. Finally he gets his glory from everyone weather they are willing or not. The
phrase that he uses over and over again as to whom will reign with him in the New
Jeruselam is, "to him who overcomes..." The Tyler Durdem life application study blble
translates that as. "PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS."
There is this idea out there of "you are the potter, I am the clay", "I am a work in progress",
and ail kind of other lame ass excuses uttered by pussified, sorry men who never pull their
extended adolescent lives together. That's because nobody ever got in their face and told
them that it is their responsibility before God as a man to pull their head out of their ass
and own their own sin. We do not help these men by coming along side of them and loving
them and "feeling their pain" and letting them know that, if not by the grace of God we
would all be in the same place. The most graceful thing we can do for them is tell them they
are pussified and we will continue to beat their ass untill they stop.
The way you pull your head out of your ass is not through Promise Keepers or accountability
groups. It is through working your ass off in the work of the gospel, losing sleep praying for
pussified men and the womens' lives they have ruined, repenting, refusing to satisfy
yourself sexually through porn, taking a wife and surrounding yourself with men to teach
you and kick your ass when you step out of line.
That is all that the Rev. Tyler Durden has to say for now.
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12 - 07-2000 02:54 PM L£3 C3
Amen. Jesus was not a pussy. He did love the world. By, being beaten, scourged, whipped
and generally having the flesh ripped off his back so he could carry a wooden cross.
Bleeding and nearly naked nailed to a piece of wood and mocked, Jesus took his beating
and took upon Himself the sins of the elect and the ensuing wrath of the Father. Does Jesus
love us? Yes. How? As a manly man.
IP: Logged
Dees Advocate
Junior Member
D posted 12 - 07-2000 03:04 PM L£3
Sooooooo Wally, big funky hunk of burning testosterone that you are, what say you of the
fact that your god, himself, is pussified?
Your biggest problem is not that you live in a completely pussified nation, it's that you're
dedicated to a completely pussified kingdom. And now that you've spread your legs of
allegiance to a completely pussified king, do I understand correctly that you'd like to
surgically reattach His balls through a one off bb rant?
Give me a fucking break.
On the few occasions he asked my advice on whether to go brimstone on the joint, I said,
completely, without a doubt, ride into the capital on a white stallion of flame and justice.
But did he heed my advice? Even give it a passing thought?
Not at all.
The arrogant bastard wouldn't listen to any of us. He had it stuck in his head that he'd ride
into the capital on a mule - where's the balls in that. Every time we sat down to eat, he
started going off about bread, wine, and his body.
Is this your idea of a man?
What a pussy.
Wally, my friend, the more you think about it, the more you're going to realize that you need
to ditch this pansy ass king of yours. We could use a guy like you on our team. We could go
places together... and run them.
Hugs, kisses, fists, and blows,
Dee's Advocate
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12 - 07-2000 03:57 PM L£H O
Church is now in session. The gospel has been preached.
Now, female comrades, I would urge you sisters to step forward and testify.
Todays question is for you, give us the most pussified man you have ever known and tell us
why you were sickened. Ever have a guy take you out "dutch", ever have a guy cry when
you dumped him, ever had a man so scared he took forever to ask you out, or maybe hasn't
even worked up the courage yet.
Testify!
IP: Logged
knowah 0 posted 12 - 07-2000 04:56 PM LO -O
Junior Member
Just to defend myself, I do believe that Jesus did do some major butt-kicking, I never denied
that He did. However, He also did display some characteristics that I'm sure you consider to
be pussified. Reverend, you make some good points and put some thought into your
response, that's all I was looking for. However, I was referring to when Jesus wept over
Jerusalem in Luke 19. As much as you may not like to, Jesus did display some
characteristics that you may classify as being pussified. We cannot pick and choose the
characteristics of Jesus or God that we want to focus on. Many people like to think of God as
loving, but refuse to believe that He is also wrathful. To some extent it seems that you may
have gone to the opposite extreme. I firmly believe that Christ displayed a balance of
characteristics in His time on earth. Some of them you might classify as pussified, your
choice, not mine. The purpose in my asking these questions was (as I believe is the purpose
of the midrash approach to learning) to refine your belief and cause you to perhaps consider
something you had not considered before. I know I don't have the answers, and I hope that
you don't think that you do either. I ask questions to stimulate thought, at times this is
done from the devil's advocate standpoint for necessary reasons. This does not mean that I
think Jesus was a wuss. Are men nowadays weak? God knows I agree. Am I sickened by
this? YES! However, extremism is never the answer. There needs to be a balance of love
and rebuke, I'm just trying to make sure you don't forget the love.
In response to your earlier querries William, I'm 23, single, raised in a divorced home
(between both parents), God is soveriegn Lord of the universe, and of my life. I'm sure you
will find some way to discount what I say now or label me in some way, and I'm alright with
that. Also I believe you may have missed the main thrust of my original post, most likely
my fault. What are you doing to help? Are you just ranting to whoever will listen and
posting inflamatory messages on a BB, or are you seriously doing something? I am
interested to know. As far as responding to my questions, the only one you even halfway
responded to was one I asked only in jest. Please learn to listen, you will learn so much
from others (not necessarily me) that it will amaze you.
Dees, umm, did you read the agreement to join this bb? What do you say of God's coming
judgment that is promised in Revelation? Christ came the first time as a suffering servant in
fulfillment of prophecy (ISA 53). If you want to full on call God what you have, I pray for
you.
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
D posted 12 - 07-2000 05:43 PM ^
Member
Thank you for your response.
Yes, are movement is real. Right now we are laying out the Founding Fathers and our
Constitution. After this email I'm heading to a couple of pubs to find a nice place to begin
our Reformation, just like Luther did at the White Horse Inn pub in his day. Our numbers
are growing and we will be launching into other cities. Our name will remain secret, but you
may consider joining us and hosting your own. Our depussification process is simple:
1. Be a man.
2. Get other men.
3. Read the Bible and do what it says.
Off to my field trip.
IP: Logged
A_Corinthian
Member
D posted 12 - 07-2000 08:28 PM L£3
I will tell you all of a pussified man.. ..A man who was a marine in the Vietnam war, worked a
blue collar job at an oil refinery, drank beer, beat my mom and left the sceene. My pussified
father. Because of this pussified man, i was raised without a father. Just to let you know,
being raised with only a mother and two sisters in your life doesnt help in becomming a
man.... hell, i dont even know where to start. I do know that i am tired of this pansy ass,
self help, drive through theropy, vanilla latte, Gap, diet cola, buddy Jesus, you can be your
own god, nation that accepts (even tells us its ok) to be gay, have an affair, leave your wife
IN' yoda
Junior Member
and kids, look at internet pom, playboy, self gratifacation, and pretty much every kind of
sin that satan himself has done. Speaking from the point of a male in his 20's, if this is the
american dream, then cut off a nut of mine so i can "be more sensitive to other peoples
lifestyles"!!?? If it seems like im whinning, then give me a good kick in the ass praise
God, at least i'll finally be a real man to my future wife and kids.
--It is better to listen to the rebuke of a wise man, than for one to listen to the song of
FOOLS. Ecclesiates 7:5— GO WALLACE
IP: Logged
D posted 12-07-2000 09:09 PM L£3 O ^
"For Fie himself is our peace, who has made the two one, and has destroyed the barrier, the
dividing wall of hostility.
Eph. 2:14
Lord Wallace,
You remind me of an old friend of mine, and maybe that is giving you too much credit, since
I do not know you, and because I am likening you to one of the best friends I have ever
had. Nevertheless, I will err (for now) on giving you the benefit of the doubt.
At the same time, however, you also remind me a bit of the "Great Oz" angry and blustery,
full of contempt, fire and rage, so I am persuaded to wonder what slinks behind the curtain?
Something vulnerable it seems. ..and my heart goes out to you.
If you are as ready to fight as I think, I imagine my empathy makes you somewhat
nauseous. This is not my intent, but as Yoda would say "I sense much fear in you..."
But I am not being fair...
and perhaps I am hitting "below the belt", since you and I do not yet have the trust of
brothers in arms, and since it is our emasculation that we are so desperately trying to
reverse.
Know that you are not alone, we all have our ghosts to contend with and I am learning (the
hard way) that they cannot be dispatched with a sword. They still require courage, but the
courage of a whole man; a man who is not afraid of even the strongest woman's strength,
but attracted to it, and discovers that not only is his masculinity still intact, but it is
brimming over (even if he does the dishes).
Look man, be watchful as you form your band of fight club men. I believe you are
dangerously treading the path of Barabbas (or even Judas)
Love your enemies. Any man can do otherwise. Anything other than love requires zero
courage, only a deadening of spirit.
And no, I cannot sanctimoniously claim that I am anywhere near this. I am more of a
caveman when it comes to my family and their protection, and I, like Peter, have my sword
drawn, ready to "Van Gogh" the first dude who looks cross-eyed at my boy. And like Peter,
Jesus rebukes me for this.
Let's fight, indeed, we are in a war, and God calls us to be "warrior poets". Let Flim be your
shield (not your rage), and may we bear his cross again and again, so the world may never
forget His love. His love... His sacrifice... His dominion... all these are more important than
anything, any dream or any word we could utter.
St. Thomas Aquinas once wrote, "I have seen things that make all my writings seem like
straw."
Let us fix our eyes upon these things...
IP: Logged
cell'me
Member
D posted 12-07-2000 10:05 PM L$21
WWII,
A_Corinthian
Member
Rex
Member
any significance in this hidden/double meaning found in your name? The stench of death in
your words is overwhelming. I once heard it said that anger - in the moment - is a death
sentence. Clearly this is true in your rants.
Knowah & lil' Yoda - commendable efforts to bring a semblance of balance to some thoughts
that are initially credible, but quickly disintegrate into a twisted, perverse proclamation of
the gospel. The gospel. Will, is not at all interested in your need to name sin(s) in others.
Our morality (or lack thereof) is not the issue that the gospel seeks to address - it is our
faith. You've got the order of God's concern confused. In fact, you've mistakenly replaced
God's sovereignty with your own - and that is a scary place to be.
You remind me of the punks in college that used to hang "anarchy" posters in their dorm
windows without considering the consequences. If they truly had gotten what they were
asking for, I would have been the first to line up and give them a beating they wouldn't
soon forget. The absence of authority would have made their world a living hell (I personally
would have seen to it) and yet they blindy espoused a philosphy which would have been
their demise.
Think on this: Jesus says "love your neighbor as yourself." No qualifiers. No exceptions. No
choice in who those neighbors might be or become. Live with it.
If I thought you were even close to accomplishing #3 on your resolution, I would join up in a
heart beat. Unfortunately your not! Your just a punk, looking to knock around others in the
name of whatever gospel your liking at the moment.
Am I pussified? Not even close. In fact, I would like nothing more than to rock your arrogant
little world. Have another beer, it will help ease the pain of your sorry existence. Or are you
willing to come up for air and talk about what's eating at you minus all the venom and crap
about this and that?
Hope it's the latter and not the former.
D posted 12-08-2000 09:26 AM Ul31
You all sound pussified to me
D posted 12-08-2000 09:34 AM uO]
IP: Logged
IP: Logged
First, to address the comments of cell'me and lil'yoda - you are making a very serious
assumption in your own interpretation of the Gospel. What is love? From the sounds of it,
you think that it is a warm, fuzzy, huggy, feeling-your-pain and offering limitless grace kind
of thing. And to a point, it may very well be.
However, love is also kicking someone squarely in the ass with the steel-toed boots of grace.
Love is helping a brother to repentance, and pointing out fallacy and ignorance. Jesus did
not spend any time sympathizing with the money changers in the temple, but you can bet
your left nut that he was showing love when he chased them out of the temple.
There is nothing at all ungodly about righteous anger. I wonder sometimes what would
happen if we actually felt and understood what sin really is and how it not only grieves God,
but outright pisses him off. You have no way of knowing what's going on where WWII is,
but I can vouch for the fact that his anger is justified. What should our response be when
'believers' are trampling the blood of Christ? What do you do when a two year old kid is
about to pull a pot of boiling water down over their head? You get them the hell out of there
by any and all means possible, even if it hurts them a bit, cause you know that it'll sure as
hell hurt less than the alternative. That, my friends, is love.
cell'me - Jesus did not die for the sake of our faith. He died to REVERSE OUR NATURE. He
William Wallace
II
Member
the patriot
Junior Member
Butterfly
Junior Member
died to change us from the whimpering, sin-infested scum that we had become into the
righteousness of God through Him. You, my friend, are believing a very shallow Gospel if
you think it centers around faith. It centers around the cross of SALVATION, which implies
that we need a hell of a lot of saving. It also pivots around the empty tomb of REBIRTH,
which implies that we have to reject all we are or have become and be willing to let God
rebuild us from the moment of our conception. The Gospel requires us to believe, yes, but
to believe is not the end in itself.
To some degree, I have been pussified. And I agree that is an epidemic. It's a very very big
problem that requires a pretty damn drastic solution. However, I say that in our definition of
pussification we need to include the ignorant, fearful men who have confused authority with
power and now try to wield that fearful power over their wives and children. Those are in
our church as well (WWII, in your church too). They may or may not have the other
qualifications of pussification, but they are most certainly pussies.
My father (admittedly not a particularly manly man) died when I was 10. My brother had
unknowingly, but irresponsibly, introduced me to hardcore porn by the time I was 12. I
found out when I was 15 that my other brother had decided he was gay. If we're going on
odds, here, my chances don't look good.
Thankfully Jesus doesn't give a flying crap about the odds.
Hey William Wallace, please count me in.
Ignorantus Rex
IP: Logged
D posted 12-08-2000 11:01 AM l£?1 □
Cell'me, don't get your g-string in a bind. You seem like a very nice woman and I'm sure one
day you'll make some man very happy. I know you may live under the illusion that you are
a man, and a good combination of medications should be of some help for that. Don't be
embarrassed, from Klinger on Mash to Richard Simmons you will have support.
Rex, welcome to the movement. For you and the other men I would recommend you read
the work by a feminist woman named Christina Sommers who is now our first inductee into
the Honorary Ring of Female Honor for her book
"The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men"
The Atlantic Monthly has a series of articles on it at
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/sommers.htm
IP: Logged
D posted 12-08-2000 11:45 AM UOI =□
If Jesus was on earth today he surley would be a trucker, I mean that is a given.
To all the anti-be a man movement, IE knowah and cell,
I want to agree with them, It takes a big man to cry, BUT it takes and even bigger man to
laugh at that man.
Jack Handy
IP: Logged
D posted 12-08-2000 11:49 AM u£?l
WWII - you did not respond to the last paragraph of cell me's post. I was with you for the
first part of the discussion, but I think you may have lost me. "Manly" (Christ being the
epitome of manliness, as He was the one and only perfect man) is one thing. Crass, rude
and inconsiderate is another thing. Don't get me wrong. I completely agree with you on
reading the Bible, convicting people of their sin, etc. I also believe in Ephesians, which says
to do so in love. Your posts have become a little more one-sided in that they are violent,
hostile, and incredibly adolescent.
William Wallace
II
Member
Rex
Member
cell'me
Member
From a female perspective, the manliest men are the men who are most like Christ. Christ
was balanced. He knew when to be hard core, and when to be compassionate. You have
hard core down to a science. Where's the compassion? Just for clarification, compassion and
pusiness are not the same thing. Do you agree?
Also, people have asked what you are doing to accomplish this goal of de-pussifying the
nation. You gave a very simple three step, blanket statement, "program". What are YOU
doing? How are YOU changing? Show us your "manliness" if you're so convinced you have
it.
D posted 12-08-2000 11:55 AM LOl ^113
IP: Logged
I speak harshly because I speak to men. A woman might not understand that.
I also do not answer to women. So, your questions will be ignored.
I would however, recommend to you a few versed to memorize:
I Timothy 2:11-15
I Corinthians 14:33-35
To learn them, ask your father or husband. If you have neither, ask your pastor. If she is a
female, find another church. If you are the pastor, quit your job and repent.
IP: Logged
D posted 12-08-2000 12:01 PM L£3
William, you're out of line. While cell'me needs to reexamine his theology and not reject
arguments purely on the basis that they call him into thick-skinned responsibility, equating
him with Richard Simmons is an insult that nobody should have to endure, pussified or not.
You're doing the same as he is, only with more guile. Knowing you, it's strange to hear
myself saying this, but grow up. He is at least entitled to his opinion without you trying to
strangle him with your codpiece. I appreciate that you're supremely pissed off with the state
of affairs, but you'll have plenty of success in your endeavours without uneqivocally
declaring people, who may want to or need to understand what you're saying, beyond help.
And while I can accept that there may be casualties in the war on pussification, I reject the
notion that they should be created just for the fun of hearing ourselves be insulting.
Respectfully submitted,
Ignorantus Rex
IP: Logged
D posted 12-08-2000 12:24 PM Li/31
Rex,
First, allow me to question your use of the term "righteous anger"? This side of heaven, it
doesn't exist. We have no righteousness apart from Christ. Even Christ living in us is a daily
renewal, on-going work that is being perfected in us. None of us have arrived - certainly not
WWII - who is convinced that one can be "screamed into holiness" (Eugene Peterson) -
which we cannot. To justify our frustation, outrage or pure hatred for the state of affairs we
live in as righteous is delusional. We are not righteous! At least not yet.
As far as my "shallow" gospel. How shallow is the cross. That is my point about the starting
place of God's concern. To begin in any place (my behavior, my moral state, my church
affiliation or attendance) other than faith puts my salvation in my own hands, which is
futile. The cross directs my faith only toward the One who has overcome sin, death and the
This topic is 11 pages long:
All times are PT (US)
devil. Not you. Not me. Again, God does not give a rat's fat *** about our goodness apart
from him, because we have none. Christ died to "reverse our nature"? Yes, but show me
how your nature is any different than my nature or WWII's nature apart from Christ. It isn't
we are all the fellow murderers of Christ. Justified? Sure, but I doubt your sanctification is
complete.
Based on the fact that it is our own sinful nature that Christ died for, WWII should be
heading to Texas to have himself executed for being a murderer of Christ since he's so
pumped about their execution rate (see manly man award thread).
Finally, the gospel I believe in is the one shown by Christ, and preached by Paul. It is not the
one presently taught in many of our churches nor the insane rants of WWII. It is the one
that says, "Jesus came not because God has a problem with me (us) - he in fact created me
to be me - but because I (we) have a problem with God." And that problem is twisting and
perverting everything God calls us to be. Jesus came while we were still enemies with God.
Don't fool yourselves into thinking that apart from God's ever-present grace and Spirit you
would be anything but an enemy of God. Knowing this, sets us free to share this truth with
others - not just sit around, drink beers and hope we could be half the man Jesus was and
is. Jesus went out and did something. What are you doing? Who is Jesus in your lives
today?
1234562891011
IP: Logged
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Open Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Hop to:
General
w
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
JAN
N
INTtRNtT A R C M I V I
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 2.html
2 captures
28 Jan 01 - 19 Nov 02
DEC
◄
2000
28
2001
►
2 (
^idrash A R s ^
:'~~7 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
S& Midrash
hfc 1 General
I Pussified Nation (Page 2)
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic: Pussified Nation
William Wallace □ pos ted 12-08-2000 12:45 pm LiH □
II
Member It is official. I am so pissed I need to get offline for 24 hours and detox.
The bottom line is very simple. Men are supposed to rule on Christ’s behalf, sometimes with
a rod of law, and sometimes with a tender touch of grace. And, young Christian men are
doing very little of either, and hardly anything with the rod of grace. I assure you I speak
from a very wide range of experience.
Are you not yet sick of hearing about yet another young guy who does not go to church,
does not tithe off his salary, does not read his Bible, does not keep his hands off his
girlfriend, does not stop staring at porn and masturbating, does not stop drinking too much,
does not stop doing drugs annd smoking weed, does not continue postponing growing up
and being a husband and father to live for anyone and everyone but himself for the first
time in his life so that God would get some glory out of the guy?
If you are a young man, when is the last time a brother asked you what you were doing with
the sum total of your life? When is the last time an elder at your church sat you down to ask
you why you don’t tithe and why you act like a complete flake most of the time?
If you are a male or female, when is the last time you actually saw an unrepentant man
brought before your church and told to leave until he changed because he was not welcome
to fellowship while being a sexual deviant, unloving husband, neglecting father, greedy punk
etc. etc. etc.
It appears like we’ve got a universal conspiracy of men winking at other men as they write
each other blank checks of "love" and "grace" while women and kids pick up the tab.
And I’m pissed.
IN' yoda O posted 12-08-2000 12:59 pm
Junior Member
Rex, You misunderstand my definition of love and empathy. What is warm and fuzzy about
fixing our eyes upon the gruesome sight of Jesus, with a heavy, splintered cross digging
into his back where the ’Cat of nine tales' ripped out hunks of his flesh with its ends of rock,
bone and broken pottery? What is warm and fuzzy about his Glory and his dominion over
us?
Perhaps I have misrepresented myself in regards to anger. So I will share some of my own
with you, and perhaps you will gain some wisdom in this.
When someone has a weapon to your head at, say the local mini-mart (or a residential
treatment facility), preserving your life will not be achieved if you escalate with him. He is
tense, so you must relax, (yes, I've been there.) This generally does one of two things.
First, he may begin to deescalate enough to know that he is scared sh--less and will get out
of there, or Second, it will take him off guard for the split second that is needed for you to
get the upper hand and neutralize him.
Rex
Junior
This tense-relax response is needed for you to get the picture of what is truly happening
here, and to either make peace, or to draw out your attacker. Peace should always be the
first and desired option. In either case, in the midst of calm, you are ready to pounce. With
righteous anger yes, but without fear.
Fear is much different than anger, (and don't give me a "fear of the Lord definition", that is
not the kind of fear I am talking about.) Perfect love casts out all fear. If you want to follow
a guy who is as afraid as the guy holding a gun, go ahead. Row over that waterfall.
I see people escalating as if it is some sort of phallic motivated nuclear buildup, and I
imagine Wallace is lauging his butt off.
Wallace, I chose to fly above the flack of your abusive rhetoric, to affirm you as a person of
worth, to see if there is a core of hope from which these course and inflammatory ideas
have come flying out like horse crap.
Like the story of the "optimistic" little boy, who was throwing horse manure this way and
that while imprisoned in a room full of the stench. When asked why he was flinging it
around, he said, "hey with all of this horse crap, there's bound to be a pony in here
somewhere."
I am hoping that you are a wild stallion who needs to be broken by a good mentor. But my
hope is dwindling.
Wallace, you have made your next move, and sadly, you are convincing me that you are
choosing not to be the real man you are, but choose instead to be merely a rhetorical
rapist, willing to abuse anyone who disaggrees with you. And so this is my last response to
this post.
And here comes my anger. I am looking for some hu"man"ity in you. But it seems that you
would rather masturbate your ego with your own ideas (in front of all of us!), and seem to
care nothing for what anyone else says.
You are Barabbas. And maybe the mob (for now) will go with you. But I pray you remember
in time who you are dividing them against, and who's glory you will eventually have to
stand in front of to account for it!
There is still hope for you, Barabbas, because you, more than anyone in the history of
humanity, should know that Jesus Christ died in your place.
Put your weapons down, and come to the table.
Before you can be a leader of men, you must learn more of what it means to be a disciple.
"Humble yourselves therefore, under God's mighty hand, that He may lift you up in due
time." 1 Peter 5:6
D posted 12-08-2000 01:01 PM L£3
Member
WWII - If you had started your argument with what you just posted, this whole thing would
have been much easier. You have (finally!) made your point beautifully.
However, I don't think Christ would have ignored a woman's questions with such an
ignorant, chauvinistic, backhanded remark. That was a terribly pussified thing to do. If what
you're touting here is truth (and for the record I believe it is), you better be ready to defend
it well enough that you aren't afraid to answer a woman. Explanation and submission are
not the same thing. Don't be paranoid. You're a teacher; so teach. And until you've
explained things well enough for us to get it, for heaven's sake don't stop.
Oh, and if you're going to hold to the teachings of Paul as if it's the Gospel (which it isn't),
you might as well force all the men in your church to cut their hair short, remove all
jewelery, makeup and adornments, and have the women keep their heads covered in the
church. I don't see a 'thus saith the Lord' anywhere near those passages. Not that they're
not true; however Paul is pretty clear that sometimes he's expressing what God has
ReformUrAss
Member
revealed to him, and sometimes he's expressing his own opinions. I'm concerned that
you're starting to sound like one of those pussified males who feels that he has to puli rank
and go power tripping instead of showing respect to someone who asked a very legitimate
question OUTSIDE OF A CHURCH.
Your manliness seems to be getting bogged down in your rhetoric and pride. Watch it.
cell'me - You're missing the point on righteous anger. I don't mean SELF righteous anger. I
mean the kind of anger and frustration that comes from seeing the bride of Christ
continually wallow in sin because she hasn't learned to walk in step with the Spirit. Paul
says 'In your anger do not sin' (Eph. 4:26). That implies to me that anger is not sin - we
can be damn good and mad and still be righteous through Christ. If you can look at the
world right now and not get properly angry, you're every bit the pussy that WWII suggests.
"this side of heaven" - in heaven there won't be any cause for righteous anger, so it certainly
won't exist there. QED.
And I reiterate: Jesus did not die for the sake of your faith. He died for the sake of your
relationship with God. You're not paying attention. Your faith gets you in the door; your
relationship with God gets you closer to being the man Jesus died to make you. IT'S NOT
ABOUT GETTING IN THE DOOR!!! Of course our nature is no different apart from Christ -
that's exactly WWII's point - our nature SHOULD BE DIFFERENT WITHIN CHRIST. For the
most part, it isn’t. That’s the problem.
And don't get arrogant, either - your sanctification is in process, too.
The issue is not one of evangelism - it's one of discipleship. This issue here has little to do
with sharing God's love with the unsaved (not to belittle the importance of that, just to
make you aware that by itself it doesn't encapsulate the Christian Life). We're already
justified; now we need to learn to live with the discipline and honor befitting a child of God -
not through our own strength, but through our submission to the authority and grace of
Jesus Christ. While we are not in any way able to bring ourselves to that point, it
nonetheless behooves us to take our responsibility seriously. That, to me, is what WWII is
on about. As you can see I disagree with his tactics, but he speaks truth.
And at the moment, I am doing plenty. I am using my gifts to serve God and man, learning
to understand what it really means to love my wife, and allowing God to have the glory.
However I have a long way to go. And from the sounds of it, so do you.
Again, respectfully submitted,
Ignorantus Rex
D posted 12-08-2000 01:14 PM L23I =■
If you will recall the book of Acts (for those who read the Bible) when the apostles John and
Peter were in Jerusalem, when they were fighting like men for a certain movement called
"The Way". There was a meeting of the Sanhedrin (the religous leaders of the day) called to
discuss what to do with the situation. A certain man named Gameleilo, (i misspelled that
one) who also was the rabbi to the apostle Paul, gave some brilliant insight. He said
something like, "If this movement is from me men it will not last but if it is from God we will
not be able to stop it and will find ourselves fighting with God."
So for anyone other wining, complaining lassies who want to share there opinions with Mr.
WWII, go ahead and keep them to yourselves. Real love encompasses alot more than giving
backrubs. Our culture defines love based on Shakespear, real men define it based on
Scripture. Loving people includes telling them the truth, and it certainly includes discipline.
"And No discipline feels good at the time. "(somewhere in Hebrews 11 or 12 i dont have a
Bible).
If this man has been sent by God (as I am persuaded he is) then all you pansies and lilies
might just find yourselves arguing with the Lord.
I personally am enjoying the discipline I am recieving, not that it feels good, but I know
when get married i will be able to wear the pants and not have to roll over on my back so
my wife can scratch my belly.
I am looking forward to the coming WWII after the new year.
Calvin
A _Corinthian D posted 12-08-2000 oi:is pm SESI
Junior Member
I want to know, why all of you are getting offended at what WWII is saying. The only reason
I can think of, if you're a guy, is that you are failing in your responsibilities as a man of God.
I am, I admit it, but I decided to change. Look at every point that WWII is stating a man of
God is REQUIRED be. I guess you're all just offended because it feels like an attack on your
character, or who you are (pussified if you ask me). Well, suck it up man. Take some
responsibility for Jesus’ sake (and I do mean for the sake of the gospel). And if your a
woman, please explain to me why you feel the need to have more balls than your fathers or
husbands, when clearly God has naturally gifted women in other areas and that the word of
God commands husbands to teach their wives and children the word. I do know that my
mother sure wished she had a real man as her husband but I guess the modern
woman likes to work full time and throw her kids into a daycare to learn words, their father
is probably teaching them anyways, while coming home with lice or some damn cold that
they caught from some other kid in that lame ass day care, while her husband is flirting
with the latte girl at the Starbucks after getting fired from his job for looking at porn while at
work and wondering why he and his wife stopped having sex. Wow, we come along way
from the "little house on the prairie" days. Men, get de-pussified! ! ! Women, support you de-
pussified man. I don't want my taxes paying your welfare. In the words of Chris Rock, "i
don’t want your kids robbing me in ten years" - A de-pussifing Corinthian
[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-08-2000).]
knowah 0 posted 12-08-2000 01:19 PM LiH
Junior Member
cell, please forgive me if I seemed to be preaching out of my butt and given a perverted
version of the gospel. I was merely trying to bring order to a one-sided conversation that
seemed to be running away. My philosophy in posting is to get people to think, refine my
own views, and see how we can sharpen each other. At times, I do this by playing devil’s
advocate (I think I said this in a later post).
I’m greatly encouraged that people are beginning to discuss this and not just spit venom,
hopefully we will go somewhere with this topic now. Just to get things straight, it might not
be a bad idea for people to define what they mean when they talk about being a "real man".
So far WWII has given his definition and the image of Christ was offered as well. Please be
specific and don’t say "according to the Bible", scroll through some other posts outside of
this topic to see how that can still lead to confusion. If you think my suggestion is asinine,
ignore it, no need to respond and tell me I’m an idiot. I already know I am, and I
acknowledge that I have a lot to learn and grow in. Help me learn.
cell'me
Member
D posted 12-08-2000 03:00 PM L23I
Knowah - I was not referring to you in my post. My comment was directed toward the valid
points in WWII's initial post which, unfortunately, deteriorated into some kind of skewed
gospel. The good of it all was blurred by the excessive derogatory comments and sense of
"on high" declarations. Knowah, your post(s) have been a strong witness of faith and won't
see any dissent from me regarding your position in this thread.
Rex - arrogance is the last thing I want to bring to these forums. As I re-read my post I
appear to place myself squarely in your camp. That is, I am not any where close to being
fully sanctified. And I continue to stand with the cross of Christ and the conviction (faith)
Butterfly
Junior Member
William Wallace
that it is ALL I need to be saved. There are a ton of good, tithing, morally right people
hanging out in our churches and it doesn't mean squat. God is interested in our faith
relationship with him because that is a transforming relationship that can give meaning to
all areas of our lives (like our families, our tithes, our friends). IF I live the rest of my life
never sinning (yeah, right) and looking real good at church and yet have no personal faith
in Jesus, then I'm screwed. So let's get this idea that getting un-pussified is connected to
somehow cleaning up our lives, because the truth is WE CAN'T DO IT. Only God can, so let's
humbly seek His face and quite tearing into everyone else's face.
My issue, is with those who claim some moral high ground (of which there is none for us)
and denounce the very lives and faith of those who somehow seem incongruous to their
myopic world-view. How does calling another man a "woman" become rigteous anger? How
does insulting and then summarily dismissing a womans' honest query convey righteous
anger? (BTW - experience tells me most angry people do let their anger become sin. Not
surprising considering our nature.)
You claim that we do not know WWII's world/experiences or whatever. True. Nor does he
know ours. How can any discussion take place if his initial response to anyone and everyone
is to slide into some vulgar, vile discourse on what he absolutely thinks. Come on guys,
what torques me is that you've staked out your turf and then hurl crap around like it's God's
desire to see his people torn up and divided.
I agree, Rex. If WWII had begun where his previous post started there would be a lot less
flak flying around this thread. So why choose to excuse the kind of destructive monologue
that was begun here? If the truth is what Wallace holds, then let it stand on its own merits -
minus all the seething anger.
Wanna be angry? Fine. Just do something constructive with it (which it sounds as if you are).
So what about WWII? Why does he continue to duck the many questions posed here? Why
not lend some credence to his position?
D posted 12-08-2000 03:18 PM L$21
Oh, no you DI-NIT!!!!!!!
Don't even patronize me by assuming I have no knowledge of Biblical verses. I know those
verses quite well, and have had many different teachings on them, all by very UNpussified
men. Would you also like me to never braid my hair? Cover it 100% of the time (since I am
to cover it while I am praying, and since we are to pray ceaselessly, that would be always)?
Never wear jewelry? What if I don't find an unpussified man and don't get married, thereby
disabling me to have children, and then I'm not eligible for heaven. If you're going to take it
literally, take it literally! The verses you use are highly controversial, and you use them out
of context.
But let's just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that we'll take these verses literally.
Unless I've missed something, we are not in church at the moment, and I am very legal in
asking questions, and having a valid and respectful response.
Like I said, at the beginning, I really respected your fervor in getting the men together to
clean up their act, it really is necessary. However, my view of you has changed from a good
guy with good intentions, to a piece of white trash from Texas wearing a wife beater
keeping his wife barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. You have infuriated me with your last
comment. Two thumbs down for your new movement, as it is not the good-intentioned
movement I thought it to be at the start. It has turned into a bunch of adolescent-minded
males with too much testosterone. Too bad, because I was hopeful at the beginning. I guess
I'll just have to put up with the two extremes I've always been used to: 1) the pussified,
and 2) the shovenist.
D posted 12-08-2000 03:43 PM BIE [21
II
Member
You may have missed my response under the female comrades, so I've listed it below. I also
did respond to your other question quite fully in that section.
Thank you. I agree. And I apologize for my tone to the young woman. The men, however,
who claim Christ will continue to be extended the right hand of fellowship. ..fist and all.
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
D posted 12-08-2000 06:11 PM L 23 I
and in my case sometimes two fist.
Squatting Bear □ posted 12-09-2000 06:05 pm L £1
Junior Member
I've never posted anything on Midrash before, but this recent discussion really has me
salivating.
First off; Wallace, you rock! Can we do lunch? Thank you for bringing up what I feel is one
of the most crucial issues of our day. The American male has virtually forgotten what
manhood and masculinity is, and aside from politics, nowhere is this more evident than in
the church.
Midst all the verse wrangling and chest hair preening, I think the crux of this topic is that we
don't have a clear definition or role model of manhood. It's supposed to be, I believe, our
fathers who teach us this, but when you grow up with a dad who's absent, distant, and/or
abusive, what do you do? I became a follower of Christ when I was five, but just because I
had read the entire Bible numerous times over didn't protect me from sexual confusion. Yes,
Christ is supposed to be my model, but in the gospel He's Jewish, and I'm native american-
he probably had a bar mitzvah to mark his passage into manhood, but what did I get? The
rite of passage for my people was to kill a man of another tribe, and a couple of years ago
we just buried the word "warrior" under the Tree of Peace! The Haudenosaunee were once
the only Indian group that was greater than the federal government, but now talk about
pussified!
While I'm talking culture, what if you're not from an indiginous group? What do you have to
mark your arrival into manhood? Being old enough to drink? Drive? Enlist? And if you don't
know when you became a man, what do you have to stand on to say that you presently are
one?
I believe that God is my heavenly father and that it is He who makes and defines a man as
who he is. But how do I as a finite sinful human connect to God thru my relationship with
Jesus Christ in such a way as to know from Him the how and when of manhood?
Lets keep the discussion going!
thevioletburning □ posted 12-11-2000 03:36 am LiSI O
Junior Member
i'll tell you who jesus is in my life today, jesus is the one who reminds me that i am a sick,
depraved piece of shit without his grace.
in a lot of ways i have a big fuck you for everyone out there.
i cry. i cry alot. but if you, william Wallace II, think that makes me less of a man (and i take
less presumption than those you have called women, by not making that an assumption and
using it as part of my argument) then you are sorely mistaken, i cry because i know what a
sick excuse for a man i am. i cry because i am moved to tears by god and pastor marks
sermons, i cry when i hear certain songs or realize by the holy spirit, certain graces present
in my life that i take for granted, i cry. on my knees, bitterly, and without shame, i fucking
suck, i deserve to rot in hell as do all of you.
for all of you who don't understand william Wallace, and want to put up all these defensive
posts, skirting the issue at the core, not living up to the fact that you need to be depussified
too, fuck you too.
moving on. i agree wholeheartedly with you william, i ask one thing and that is admission
into your revolution.
Respected
Junior Member
i have been a Christian since age three (i am now twenty), i have been raised in a loving,
godly Christian home, son to a pastor, son to overseas missionaries, most every advantage,
most every provision available in my life, yet i have lived a self centered, pussified life, since
sixth grade i have dealt with lust and masturbation, i lost my virginity two years ago. i spent
a year doing drugs, betraying my parents trust, lying to all those who love me, trying to
forget the fact that i'm not a virgin, and somehow in the midst of the weed and shrooms
and abusive drinking and longings for death, Christ became real to me. Christ rebirthed in
me the desire to be pure, the desire to be a broken man and a ressurected warrior, and
here i am.
i am a fucked up individual, we all are and the fact that i know that i am and will claim it and
seek change and gods love and grace means that i'm one step closer to growing balls.
every man of god should be a part of this revolution, every man of god who thinks he
shouldn't be is messed up. i need change, i want change, i moved for change, i live for
change.
glory and praise be to our father in heaven, blessed be the spirit who moves, inspires, and
fills us with god. thanks be to jesus, without whom, we would be eternally lost, eternally
pussified.
for all of you, i love you. brothers in Christ, i pray for you and ask the lord to reign down his
love on you and to reform your asses, i humbly pray the same for myself, blessings,
blessings all. -violet
[This message has been edited by thevioletburning (edited 12-11-2000).]
D posted 12-11-2000 08:44 AM L$=E
MR.WWII asked earlier on this thread for women to reply with a comment or two on a
pussified man that they have known.
I would like to answer, however the numbers of pussified men I have know are too great to
rant about them on this board. So I will take a leap of faith and be dangerously general and
list the qualifications of all of the pussified men that I have known.
1. They take no responsibility (in anything)
2. They Abuse alcohol among other substances as an excuss to be "more Manly"
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with men enjoying a frosty draft of ale, just don't
become a pussified alcoholic in the process.
3. They don't respect women.
4. They don't respect God or His laws.
5. They are not willing to repent for their sin. (PRIDE)
6. on and on and on and on
I would like to expand on #3 and #4. God calls us to not only fear him but to respect him.
When you fear and respect God you will respect women. As a woman (not a feministic
pansy) I feel that I can say that women want a real man the kind of man Mr. WWII speaks
of. This is the kind of man that will respect, honor, and love a woman the way God has
intended. I don't want an over sensitive, don't "hurt" me, emotional wreck of a blubbering
idiot for a husband. I say women should demand the standards that Mr. WWII has set from
all men.
To comment on those who have erroneously tried to rebuke this argument for
depussification; it seems to me that the counter-arguments are merely a meger defense for
the pussified state that you are subject to. Go BEYOND your culture. Don't be brain washed
by the Will and Grace effigies on network T.V. Read the Scripture, confess your sin, fear
God, respect God, take resposibility and REPENT.
Quit being such a wuss.
cell'me □ posted 12-11-2000 10:08 AM LS 3 I
Member
here it is again:
my argument is not with WWII's position, but rather his inflammatory demeanor in
presenting it. the issue for me is not whether or not there are half-men out there (it goes
without saying that there are) nor is the issue a call for the restoration to manhood by
WWII. i completely agree.
for me, the issue is why go around slamming the plank in every one else's eye when the
plank in your own eye is so big you can't even see me - the one that you demand become
de-pussified. i am totally aware of my depraved state as a man. so why do i need some
smack from some no face who has no idea about my story - my prayerful yearnings to be
more than who i am. the men who are mentoring/pastoring me are already at work, the
men I am mentoring/pastoring are already at work, just because i choose not to scream
profanities and offer brews as the preferred method of discipleship does not invalidate me or
my faith.
i am choosing to come Christ in humility and seek His face for MY own failing before ranting
about the failings of others, as Christ moves in me and transforms me - the heart to call
others to faith, obedience or whatever will reflect His character, not ours, so let's think a bit
more about how we throw around these calls for new life.
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
D posted 12-11-2000 12:47 PM L£3 ^
I heard that Wallace II is seven feet tall, can win a soul with half of an old testament verse
in under ten seconds, and chastised 50 youth pastors in one day.
[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-11-2000).]
The Man in Black
Junior Member
D posted 12-11-2000 01:22 PM LS3I
Many props to the violet burning for a wrenching summary of this entire thread.
As to posts regarding the form of WWII's message, get over it. The heart of the matter is
this - as men, we all need an ass kicking for our sin. Period.
And ass kickings are not pretty.
When Christ kicked Peter's ass in Matthewl6:28, he used the harshest rebuke... Get behind
me Satan.
Peter was certainly crushed. Jesus knew he would be. He did it anyway because it was
necessary. In this He did not sin (though he did not display populist psychocrap self-help
notions of "the fruits of the spirit" - that's not peaceful, that's not gentle, that's not self-
controlled).
When a man (and not the Messiah) has the compassion to kick another man's ass in this
way, there will be noise, interference, sin, and imperfect delivery involved. A real man does
this in spite of the likely fallout. He does not wait to be perfected or to perfect his message
in order to act. If he sins in the process, which he, being a wicked man in need of many ass
kickings of his own, is likely to do, he repents.
And this, men, is leadership.
And I would weigh in on the side that says 98.57% of the things that WWII has posted are
offensive but not sinful. I would not say them the same way, even if I were very very very
pissed. But that does not mean they should not be said.
The Man In Black
cell'me
Member
The Man in Black
Junior Member
thevioletburning
Junior Member
Bryan
Administrator
D posted 12-11-2000 02:16 PM [JLE
man in black,
great point! perhaps i have been overly "sensitive" to the delivery system of this message,
again, i agree with the message in principle, however, it is telling to me that the support for
this ass-kicking seems, at times, oblivious to the offensive nature of its presentation and
then attacks anyone that raises an objection.
when brothers in Christ are saying, 'we hear you, about dialing it back a notch?" and are
dismissed out of hand as some "little gir, dress-wearin', sex with a man" kind of guy, that
pisses me off.
why can't i support my need for an ass-whoopin' by someone other than a guy with
anger/masturbation issues because daddy was gone and mommy didn't raise him right to
be a man like IN' Johnny from WWII's first post.
i say some need to get past their "oh me, i lost my manhood as a child and can't find it
outside of a beer and a fight" mentality, once that's done, i would be more than happy to
bend over and take your boot to my ass. until then, i'll keep listening to real men like pastor
mark.
D posted 12-11-2000 02:55 PM L$3] =□ ^
Cell,
The act of "Raising an objection" to some ears sounds legitimate. To others it sounds like
whining.
When we start deconstructing the elements of the ass kicking (what color shoes are being
used, what is the trajectory of the foot, how far deep do you suppose that thing can go?,
yada, yada, yada) we move from less of an ass kicking to more of a ballet.
This, from my experience, only enrages the ass-kicker.
Sometimes it is best to shut up and take it like a man. Especially if you deserve it.
The Man in Black
D posted 12-11-2000 03:12 PM L£21 □
good point man in black, i think that i can agree with pretty much ail sides of this arguement
in one way or another, but the fact remains that william has posted a convicting message
and rather than heeding it, agreeing with it, and preparing for the beating, some have
chosen to disect the delivery of the message (which came from a fallen man, thus is a fallen
message) and in the process completely lost the message its self.
we all agree that all are fallen, why bicker about methodology and petty finger pointing
issues, if you agree with william, embrace it. if not, you know that what he stands for is
godly, so don't post inflammitory posts in response, if you don't like what you read, stay out
of this message board, -the violet
D posted 12-11-2000 06:02 PM L£3 =■ ^
Congratulations Willie Wallace, it's obvious you've touched a sensitive nerve here! And to
that I say, "Good job!" Anytime a rant elicits impassioned reaction, I believe you're on the
right track.
Hey Man in Black and violetburning, this 'shut-up-and-take-your-beating' argument is
RETARDED and JUVENILE. There are legitimate issues which have been raised in response
to WWII's posts. To just brush them off as "Oh, you're just trying to argue your way out of
your deserved beating" is a cop-out. When we agree with the crux of someone's argument,
it doesn't mean we have to accept the baggage which comes with it or the means of its
delivery. If the Ku Klux Klan lynched a black man for stealing, would you tell the man, "Hey,
quit yer protestin'! Buck up and take yer deserved wuppin' like a man!"?
Willie, your assessment of contemporary Christian men is accurate; most have dropped the
ball. (Maybe both!) But I have to agree with Cell; your macho posturing is nauseating! If
the movement you're heading up requires embracing the sadly ubiquitous canned-beer-
drinkin'-pick-up-truck-drivin'-WWF-watchin'-college-football-baseball-cap-with-a-
ridiculously-curled-in-bill-wearin'-a-women's-place-is-in-the-kitchen-barefoot-and-preg nant-
if-I'm-doing-something-wrong-punch-me-in-the-face-and-break-my-nose mentality, then
count me out! If it is about looking at Christ and the model He is for us and comparing our
pathetic state to that standard and, in turn, figuring out how we can change and more
importantly, allowing Him to change us, then count me in.
As for your methodology, I don't think you can change anything by merely lashing out at the
mess. You're identifying problems without offering viable solutions. (Starting a 'secret'
movement smells more like FOE or Free Masons than anything worthwhile!) Bringin' down
the hammer is not a solution. It is my opinion and experience that compassionate
admonition is far more effective than iron-fisted chastisement. (See Romans 2) Like it or
not, we heed the counsel of those who’ve won our respect; who we feel love us and want
the best for us, not those who smack us upside the head while yelling, "CHANGE YOUR
WAYS YOU LOSER!" Character is huge when it comes to issues like this. Modeling how a
man of God should look will take you thousands of miles farther in winning disciples than
shouting at people, "I don't like what they're doing (or not doing)!" Knowing nothing of your
character, Willie W., you're not qualified to chastise anyone. You can identify a problem, as
well you've done, but that's it.
Now this is not to say we don't need an upside-the-head-smacking. We do. It's just not
meant to be delivered via a bb post. It should be delivered one of two ways: By the Holy
Spirit (I know, this is a hard one to accept because most of us don't REALLY trust that God
will be as effective [or punctual!] as we would be. I confess I struggle with wanting to help
the Spirit along!), and/or by those around us. Hopefully those who we know well, who've
earned our respect and who are qualified to deliver lashings where lashings are due! One of
the problems with Christian men these days is that they've stopped 'sharpening' each other.
Single and married Christian men need to be meeting regularly with a small group of friends
who can truly hold each other accountable; asking the tough questions, loving each other,
recognizing bullshit and calling each other on it and praying for each other (always). It's the
model Jesus Christ gave us. The 'pussified' "...church men’s group that is really a woman's
group in disguise complete with cookies and crying and antidepressants..." which you
(rightly) rail against is just a warm, fuzzy, demonic distortion of this model.
I agree that there's a problem. (And I'm glad you had the guts to bring it up, WWII.) I would
rather look at ways we can encourage, exhort, admonish and disciple than just chastising
away.
Un-anonymously,
-Bryan Dutt
Gladiator
Junior Member
D posted 12-11-2000 07:25 PM
"If we do not sacrifice the natural to the spiritual, the natural life will mock at the life of the
Son of God in us and produce a continual swither. This is always the result of an
undisciplined spiritual nature. We go wrong because we stubbornly refuse to discipline
ourselves, physically, morally, or mentally. "I wasn't disciplined when I was a child." You
must discipline yourself now. If you don't, you will ruin the whole of your personal life for
God. God is not with our natural life while we pamper it."
Oswald Chambers
William Wallace
II
D posted 12-11-2000 10:01 PM L23I
Member
Comrades. Squatting Bear raised a good issue that I want to explore. In most cultures
throughout human history there have been rights of passage after which a boy was
recognized and treated as a man. In our age wherein being a man is some sort of deviation
needing treatment (just look at the legion of young boys popping Ridlin and the like as if
were Pez) we have no idea what to do with a teenage boy. In the Hebrew world a man
became a boy around age 13 and he was permitted to marry by that age. The average age
of man getting married was 18, rarely was a man over 20 single. In our world, you can be a
damn boy well into your fifties as the present generation of boomers has so well shown.
Between hair implants, viagra and plastic surgery you can wear your lettermans jacket well
into retirement and still cruise the high school looking for hot chicks and still be elected the
erected president of the United States of Pussification.
The question remains, when does a boy become a man? When does a boy stop playing with
other boys and get sat down by the men and told that at that moment he is a man and has
to get it together because he will be expected to act like a man and treated like one if he
does not? Without that clear line we have pushed adolescence into high school, then into
college, then until you're married and now you can prolong the deliquency until Jesus comes
back by shacking up with your parents well into your 20's, knocking boots with your
girlfriend as she pays the rent, and one day get married to send your kids to daycare and
wife to work so you don't have all that hassle on your very narrow and brittle shoulders.
The question of the day is this, at what age is a boy a man and what should we do to tell
them that?
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-11-2000).]
hopeful
Member
D posted 12 - 11-2000 10:26 PM LsL2
You better start early!
Pornography is introduced to the prepubecent. T.V. starts brainwashing with the onset of
cartoons. Boys are exposed to feminazi teachers in elementary school.
The way to start affecting a boy is by spending time with him and showing him how it's
done. Without a Godly example in his life the boy will stay a boy. Start giving the kid the
Gospel when he's in diapers.
©
You better start early!
Erik Christian
Junior Member
D posted 12 - 12-2000 05:03 AM LO ^113
"Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but
a sword." Matthew 10:34
It's written in red so you know the score.
WWII: I find your approach offensive and your demeanor calloused. However, with few
exceptions, I couldn't agree more.
You are content-rich but you might try some mercy with your message, 'nuff said.
Blessings.
The Man in Black
Junior Member
D posted 12 - 12-2000 06:48 AM E3
If you do not serve your church with your gifts, do not whine - You are a pussy and the
smallness of your step can be seen from the satellites.
If you do not tithe in your church, do not whine - your are a pussy, albeit, a pussy with kat-
nip and cool toys.
William Wallace
II
Member
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
cell'me
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
If you do not take specific actions to woo women around you into lifelong Solomaic Songs,
do not whine - you are too fixated on pussies to do anything about properly getting some.
If you do not seriously consider what you can do with your time and your money to
strengthen and encourage the widows, orphans, single moms, and fatherless children in
your church, do not whine - you are a pussy and, if you were successful in properly getting
some, you wouldn't have a clue how to deal with fatherhood (the logical conclusion of
properly gotten pussy).
If you do not call the believing men in your life to the carpet for trading the mantle of
leadership God has bestowed on them (not reading the Bible and doing what it says) for the
pork and beans of individualism and complaint, do not whine - I can hear you prowling in
the chicken coop and I know you know what country men do to cats in the chicken coop.
These are marks of manhood. I have just kicked your ass.
The Man in Black
[This message has been edited by The Man in Black (edited 12-12-2000).]
D posted 12-12-2000 10:34 AM =113
I have been thinking and praying about this whole string and I am really sorry if I hurt
anyone's feelings. I am sorry if men of God had their inner child spanked. I feel terrible for
all the tears you guys have shed over the pain of my words. Please forgive me. Please come
to my house right now so I can hold you tightly in my arms and draw you to myself and
whisper oh so sweetly in your ears. ..shut the hell up.
D posted 12-12-2000 11:19 AM U3I
I would argee with HOPEFUL that "The way to start affecting a boy is by spending time with
him and showing him how it's done" and that should start at the early stages of life. I would
say that at the start of jr high to high school, would be the time to treat your son (other
men etc.) like a man. Lay down the law on how he is suppose to kick another mans ass, if
that high school horn dog comes near his sister. Let him know of his God ordained
responcibility, to get a job and have nature toil against him. -plus other things that i do not
know of, because i went through the pussified ordaining of a man. Finally, at the age of 23
im turning into a man (All because Jesus gave me a swift kick in the ass)!!! -A Corinthian
[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-12-2000).]
D posted 12-12-2000 11:24 AM [j~2l
wee little willy,
no tears shed, no inner-child to spanked, just an anger over the same kind of crap that is
served up so often everyday on TBN, albeit with a different delivery system than yours,
which does more to kill faith that uplift it.
why the punkish attitude? why the need to yell at the top of your lungs til everyone else is
drowned out? answer me this or pipe it!
D posted 12-12-2000 12:10 PM L£?l O
Please hike up your skirt and come to my house. I'll bake you something and pretend like I
care.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-12-2000).]
cell'me
Member
Porkfry
Member
Erik Christian
Junior Member
expatriot
Junior Member
D posted 12-12-2000 02:27 PM LaEZl
note (12-13-00):
will, why the edited post? why change your words from "like I give a shit" to "like I care"
after the fact? are you posturing for any particular reason? are you not satisfied with what
you're saying or how you're saying it? just curious?
wee one,
so well put. i am so hurt by your cutting sarcasm.
your swings between thoughtful discourse and inane rants are troubling, you seem to have
no ability and/or desire to enter into any kind of meaningful dialogue - which translates into
you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
my take is: your choice of this virtual venue as a place to espouse ideals of manhood belies
your lack of it. a real man is not satisfied with making third grade insults to people of
unknown origin and history, you, and everyone with you, are more interested in sounding
cool and being right than in carrying the cross of Christ, and that sucks.
BTW, i doubt you could bake anything other than your own self-absorbed mind could eat.
[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-13-2000).]
D posted 12-12-2000 02:49 PM L£H
DAMNUM! YOU KIDS PLAY NICE, OR I WILL TURN THIS CAR AROUND!!!
Porkfry
D posted 12-12-2000 03:00 PM LO] -O
Point of Order:
Real Men (and Women) know how to spell.
Before you good men and women proceed further with your contentious banter, why don't
you all start with something simple like forming a complete thought and communicating it
clearly.
That is all.
D posted 12-12-2000 03:32 PM L£1
You look at the god, Jesus, and say, "make me a man! Make me a manly man that I might
glorify God!" and there is sad laughter in response.
Can you hear the laughter? Look at this thread! Look how we're missing the point again. Do
you really think becoming manly will make you godly? Or worse, do you profess God for the
sake of establishing your manhood?
We don't submit to lust or porn because we have forgotten to be men, but because we have
forgotten the desire for God.
We will not know God, or even remember the real desire, by making ourselves men. Men do
not glorify God. God glorifies himself. Forget becoming men, we have more pressing
problems. We do not know the God we worship.
cell'me
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
D posted 12-12-2000 03:57 PM L£21
you guys are right - sorry for the lame back and forth,
expatriot, point taken,
carry on.
D posted 12-12-2000 05:24 PM [_£?] □
Men do not fear God. And, whether they do their job or not they are still residing in a place
of headship and their negligence is reflected in the tyranny of homes, churches, and the
like. In Acts 5 a man named Ananias decided (with his wife) to withhold money they had
pledged to God. Peter declared that in this simple act of failing to fully pay what he owed to
God for his tithe that Satan had filled his heart. And so God killed him. And great fear we
are told came over the church of that day. Imagine if every man who failed to pay his tithe
in full simply died in our churches on Sunday.
What I mean by being men is something that begins with fearing God in such a way that
wisdom, meaning the practical daily ways to demonstrate God's active presence in our lives,
is the end result. This wisdom is most clearly seen as men govern with headship over wives,
homes, and churches.
Conversely, a pussified man is a man conformed to the pattern of this age who claims to be
a son of God but does little to take upon himself a profound fear of God and carry the
mantle of responsiblity he has been given. In his defense such men are common to shout
that they just need more patience and love. But with such men it seems that may have
been all they have gotten and thus far it has benefitted them little.
Lastly, I would argue that indeed a rigorously solid theology proper (understanding of God)
is elemental and that many men have been subjected to more education along the lines of
psychology (ala self-esteem, self-actualization, self-fulfilment - all euphemistic code words
for pride and narcissism) and moralism (steps to becoming holier by ones self-discipline and
works rather than God's grace) than true theology which seeks God's glory and revelation
rather over our own glory and self-understanding.
But, the average Christian man that I know (and I assure you I know literally thousands
upon thousands) tends to know a great amount of theology in comparison to most brothers
and sisters throughout time and across the globe. And, within his reach is enough resources
to study most anything he can dream of. But, he is often lazy, not diligently taking hold of
his faith and maturing willingfully by simply ceasing to be a hearer only and become a doer
of what he knows to be correct. If the spirit of GOd is within him and desires him to stop
masturbating, putting his hands on his girlfriend, blowing his money irresponsibly, giving all
his time to being entertained and the like then we must conclude that his flesh is weak and
what he needs is a workout to make him strong, not therapy to further explore the
weakness of neglected muscles.
D posted 12-12-2000 06:57 PM L£3
This discussion has been focusing a lot upon sin as the primary cause of masculine deviancy,
as so it probably is; however I would like to again place the suggestion that ignorance plays
a very strong role.
No question that Christ Jesus is Lord and should be Lord of every aspect of our lives, but
part of worship is simply being what God created you to be, and if that's a man, then you'd
better get busy and be the best manly man you can be. It's not about self-glorification or
self-fulfillment, but submission and humility. Being a man of God requires both a grasp of
God -to whom we worship, and manhood, -how we should worship.
Hannah □ posted 12-12-2000 07:04 pm LOl
Junior Member
"Then Hannah prayed and said: . Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak
such arrogance, for the Lord is a God who knows and by him deeds are weighed. The bows
of the warriors are broken but those who stumbled are armed with strength. Those who
were full hire themselves out for food, but those who were hungry hunger no more. She
who was barren has borne seven children, but she who has had many sons pines away. The
Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up. The Lord
sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts. He raises the poor from the dust and
lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne
of honor. For the foundations of the earth are the Lord's; upon them he has set the world.
He will gaurd the feet of his saints, but the wicked will be silenced in darkness. It is not by
strength that one prevails; those who oppose the Lord will be shattered. He will thunder
against them from heaven; the Lord will judge the ends of the earth. He will give strength
to his king and exalt the horn of his annointed."' 1 Samuel 2:1-10
[This message has been edited by Hannah (edited 12-12-2000).]
expatriot □ posted 12-13-2000 11 :59 AM l£!
Junior Member
Men don't fear God because they don't see God. Your observation is astute: one can read all
the theology and receive all the love and mercy in the world and still not recognize the
profound existence of God. Call such people Pharisees or call them Christians, it makes little
difference. The Jesus you believe in didn't come to correct the Pharisees in their errors, he
came to feed those who are hungry, to heal those who are sick and seeking a cure.
I respect your style, and you are obviously very effective. I'm all for teaching people, bloody
fists and all, to have discipline over their sin and their flesh.
But your harshness is beneficial only for those who know— and know to the core of their
being— their desperate appetite for God.
For the general public enforcing the manly responsibility of men will not instill in men the
fear of God. Neither will it bring them to an active knowledge of God. Instead it will teach
them the fear of the church, which is a poor substitution.
As for those "pussified men" who think they are full, those who rape their girlfriends without
knowing, those who sing in church, those who hide from their wives, then spout theology
and religion as a guise for spirituality— those people don't need your fists. Neither do they
need to be the object of your love and mercy. But rather, they need to see— and see
overwhelmingly— your freedom, and that freedom which is a freedom from fear, laws, lust,
culture, suffering, and your own ego. They need to be amazed by you. They need to smell
your lover on your breath, tasting that your lover is the likes of which they, as would-be
men, have never had. Show them your desire, and show them your feast. When they
become drunk on desire for God, then they are ripe for your discipline-teaching, manly
man-making violence.
But as for me, I ask for fists.
cell'me
Member
D posted 12-13-2000 01:29 PM L£3
expatriot,
I like what you have to say regarding this issue. However, I see similar effectiveness with
"brands" of "harshness" happening all around me and the gospel is far too often
misrepresented.
Interestingly enough, WWII claims his own manhood and shouts for manly men. Not so long
ago, Jerry Falwell claims the high ground, pounds the pulpit and vigorously denounces all
kinds of sin in our lives. Lo and behold, Jerry is caught up in his own sin and damages the
integrity of his message by being exactly who he is (a sinner) and all the while attempting
to convine people he is somehow better, even above them.
It was a crock then with Jerry and it is a crock now with Willy. Wallace is no more a man
than any other man. Furthermore, his disregard for humility and respect is completely
antithetical to the Christ-hymn of Philippians 2:5-11. I read Phil. 2:3 and see nothing of that
in his posts. The arrogance is sickening and the circular reasoning used to shout down his
detractors is laughable.
I also welcome the fists of brothers in Christ. I only pray that these fists will belong men who
seek to decrease so that Christ might increase in their lives. Not the other way around.
amnesiac □ posted 12-13-2000 05:28 pm L£?l
Junior Member
brother,
i agree with bryan. your shut-up-and-take-your-beating arguement is lame, your first post
on the whole "pussified nation" subject, was one of the best so far, though. I agree with
almost everything you expressed, except your seemingly whole-hearted, unconditional
acceptance of Mr. Wallacell's misguided missile.
porkfry,
your hilarious. ..keep it up.
Mr. Wallace,
Your, "It is official. I am so pissed I need to get offline for 24 hours and detox." post was
amazing. Perfectly delivered, with power, and a measure of sensitivity. I think everyone will
agree that you made points, and your point way more with that post than with your others.
More facts, and answers, less complete ass-hole comments, unbecoming of a leader, ie.
"Please hike up your skirt and come to my house. I'll bake you something and pretend like I
care."
cell'me and knowah,
I'm with you for the most part.
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
All times are PT (US)
Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
POST REPLY
Hop to:
General
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
JAN
N
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 3.html
2 captures
28 Jan 01 - 19 Nov 02
DEC
◄
2000
28
2001
►
2 (
v'lidrash' A R s ^
~ /~~7 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
Midrash
’ General
Pussified Nation (Page 3)
POST REPLY
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic: Pussified Nation
amnesiac □ pos ted 12-13-2000 05:31 pm ^
Junior Member
okay.
i am not a member of your church, but some one i respect very much, who attends your
church
thinks extremely highly of you Mr. Wallacell, that is what brings me here, were i not a
Christian, i'm not quite sure what i would think, whether you know who's who or not, it's
fairly easy to ascertain that you, Mr. Wallacell are in charge, as a human being, i
usually don't like enduring the company of a narrow, closeminded, rude, person who
pretends to uphold the bible, (you do actually have several very fine references), but
ignores other scriptures that rebuke his own line of thinking, here we go. i'm sure i
would be quite turned off to what your church is offering, were i lost myself, the
disclaimer at the bottom of the opening page of midrash states that "We are a diverse
community with strong convictions that also appreciates friendly dialogue and interaction
with people of differing views." It seems like your post should read, " hi, i'm a mand of
god, I'm kind of an asshole, though so if I
don't like what you have to say, I'll bash you, make you feel ignorant, and less informed
on the true matters of spirituality than myself, and oh, if you're a woman, don't even
bother." Yeah, that's great, because that's what Jesus said to women too. "If you're a
woman, don't bother trying to get into heaven, 'cause you sinned first." I can't believe
you fucking took I Corinthians out of context. Maybe somehow. I'm more educated, than
you on this matter, (which would be extremely sad. I'm hoping it's not the case
honestly), but from what I understand about I Corinthians 14:33-35, it was written,
not because women didn't have a voice in the church, but because they were asking
about dumb shit, they should have brought up at home, and not in the middle of the
church service. Let me quote what the Life Application Bible, New International
Version has to say about this. "Does the mean that women should not speak in church
services today? It is clear from 11:5 that women prayed and prophesied in public
worship. It is also clear in chapters 12-14 that women are given spiritual gifts
and are encouraged to exercise them in the body of Christ. Women have much to
contribute and can participate in worship services. In the Cornithian culture, women
were not allowed to confront men in public. Apparently some of the women who had
become Christians thought that their Christian freedom gave them the right to question
the men in public worhsip. This was causing division in the church. In addition,
women of that day did not receive formal religious education as did the men. Women
may have been raising, questions in the worship services that could have been answered
at home without disrupting the services. Paul was asking the women not to flaunt
their Christian freedom during worship. Thge purpose of Paul's words was to promote
unity, no to teach about women's role in the church." Kind of put's it all in
perspective, kind of like you didn't. As for I Timothy 2:11-15, Timothy did not
say, "It is wrong for a woman to teach..." he said, "I do not permit a woman to teach...".
That's his deal. That's what he thought was right, not what God neccessarily thought.
If you're really concerned about following those scriptures, this is the place for women
to raise questions. ..not in a church service, but outside church. I don't remember Jesus
ever ignoring a woman. Correct me if I'm wrong (that's a sincere request, actually).
Mr. Waliacell. Much of what you have written about is based on some kind of church.
But let me be the first to say, that by discounted a person's words on the basis of
gender, by throwing caution to the wind and being offensive to make a point you can't
fully back up, and lastly by
putting your agenda ahead of your duty as a man of god to nuture and not tear down,
you're
making a big fucking mistake. Because believe it or not, as much as you'd like to think
that you are challenging men to be more godly, riding all high on the buzz of your
manliness, quick wit, your holy, holey, agenda, you are not succeed, because you have
decided that offending many people unnessessarily, and getting your point across the
way you want to get it across, is more important, that speaking the truth in love,
which I'm pretty sure is biblical. Are you sure, that you're method is biblical?
Sure, sure, Jesus was offensive, and it was in love. I agree with Rex, that when Jesus
trashed the temple it was in love. But that was the only way, jesus could get his
message across, and he didn't do it with insults either. Do you think that when Jesus
helped the harlot, he was all, "Hey you fucking slut! What are you doing? Go and don't
screw up again, okay? I'm just telling it like it is, cause you being a whore and all
makes me sad and pissed off at the same time. I love you, really, it's just gosh, you're
so filthy." Hmmmm. In my eyes, you using the word pussified (a vulgar reference to
female genitalia), you picking on gay men (one extreme) over wife beating, beer
guzzling,
manly men (the opposite and equally spiritually unhealthy extreme), and you ignoring
women when you feel like it, is kind of like Jesus calling the harlot a slut. I think
you have some ideas. Some revolutionary ideas. When I first heard of "the pussified
nation" I sided quickly with many of the things you said. Or apparently said, because
once I read it for myself, I thought, "This guy needs a taste of his own medicine. He
needs to take a good hard manly beating, and then some good hard dick in the ass, like
they do in jail," because if I dare say, many of those drop-the-soap-in-the-shower
rapists are what most of us would consider manly men. You just went to far. No one
needs to be insulted over this. You are a man of god. You have a duty to
uphold Biblical truth-not your own. If you can prove to me, that what you're doing is
totally Biblically kosher, I'm all ears. It sounds to me like you just have some kind
of aversion to homosexuality, since you immediately focused your attack on the
homoerotic.
Plus, it's probably not a good idea to judge people like James Dobson. While I have
issues with him and his ministries myself, I don't discount the ministry he might have
to some. I'm not saying I never judge. I've judged you infact. But I'm human not
trying to pretend I'm not. I had other things to say, but I forgot. Please get pissed
off at me and write me back, insulting me not because I deserve it but because, I don't
share you're views. That would be quite in charcter for a man of God seeking
unity. Actually I will earnestly invite you're rebuke, because as you are a man of god,
I'm
sure you have plenty of valid rebuke for everyone. So dish it out. I've got my faults,
many of which are apparent in my writings and arguements. Isn't that what this whole
thing is about? Owning up to mistakes, and reversing them? I'm man enough to own up
to
the fact that I have my shortcomings. Are you?
[This message has been edited by amnesiac (edited 12-13-2000).]
sinner-saint
Junior Member
Do you feel your outrage, vulgarities, and complete disregard to serious questioners in
this "midrash" fits a man of God? Not "manly" man, forget that rhetoric, but man of
God? Are you trying your hardest to imitate an OT prophet? Are you willing to spout this
message the same way in front of a congregation of 500? Should I go beat somebody's
ass when they sin?
D posted 12-13-2000 09:35 PM L£1 ^
WW2
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
hopeful
Member
William Wallace II
Do you not see that you are in sin and should repent yourself? Are you "man" enough to
face that? Are you "man" enough to repent to all who you've caused to stumble? Does it
really make sense that men shouldn't beat women but at the same time beat each other
with bloody fists? I want to puke, because I know who you are and I'm getting sick.
Are you somewhere up that ivory tower? Is there some way I can come visit, or do I
have to turn around and bend over so you can give me a good whoopin' first. How
arrogant!
Want to assume I don't love the woman God placed beside me? I do. And I freakin'
screw up sometimes. And I love God. And He shows me my mistakes. The hurt that I
see I've caused is a bigger ass-kick than your words of hatred. A godly man will keep
his mind in the word and keep his eyes open. He'll take on his responsibilities with
contentment because his eyes are on the One who put him where he is and his heart is
soft to the unsearchable wisdom of the Lord Who is in control. And he'll learn to pray for
discernment. He'll crave wisdom. He'll delight in God, he'll delight in his wife. A godly
woman will respect him and trust him. Together they will serve God and seek His glory
in their marriage. They will grow in love and faith, their hope will burn brightly. Amen.
Want to change the world? Get on your knees. Whatever you bring to the Lord, believe
that he has heard. When you get off your knees and tackle the situation you've just
brought to Jesus in prayer, don't try to play his role. You aren't wise enough, you only
act in disobedience and faithlessness.
Keep strutting with all your pomp. You're sure to bring God glory that way. If that's your
ultimate end...
D posted 12-13-2000 11:41 PM uOl
I think we need to pray to God. Pray that godly men can have the courage to confront
(be it fist, word, or action) other godly men (or at least men that are supposed to be
godly) and that those being confronted, would have the humility to repent,
praise God and change. I still cannot understand why so many people are getting
offended.
To those people who are, listen to what Reform said in an earlier post. "If you will recall
the book of Acts (for those who read the Bible) when the apostles John and Peter were
in Jerusalem, when they were fighting like men for a certain movement called "The
Way". There was a meeting of the Sanhedrin (the religous leaders of the day) called to
discuss what to do with the situation. A certain man named Gameleilo, (i misspelled that
one) who also was the rabbi to the apostle Paul, gave some brilliant insight. He said
something like, "If this movement is from men it will not last but if it is from God we will
not be able to stop it and will find ourselves fighting with God."
Trust God that he is in control, stop arguing, and see what God does (either bless the
movement, or have other plans for it.
But oh well, you dont have to listen to me, im just a corinthian.
[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-13-2000).]
[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-13-2000).]
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:22 AM [j~2l ^
I'm kind of glad WWII went a little overboard on this bb. For the people who know him,
there will be a few less WWII wannabees and a few more imitators of Christ. Man is
surely fallen, let us not follow man but Christ.
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:11 PM LiH □ ^
Member
Mr. Amnesiac - you're right, Paul wasn't speaking for God with authority when he wrote
to Timothy. He was just blowing a few opinions. You're absolutely right. Therefore, Peter
was also an idiot who screwed up when he said that Paul was writing Scripture (2 Peter
3:16). It is really helpful to see such a skilled theologian step up and pick a fight with
his pants around his ankles and head between his legs. This is exactly why the
movement is needed. Thank you for so skillfully proving my point. Please feel free to
respond and further validate the cause. Please also feel free to use some Scripture.
Maybe some of the stuff Moses made up, or that stuff John dreamt up on his day off, or
my personal favorite that stuff where Jesus was thinking out loud and somebody
accidentally wrote it down.
William Wallace II
Member
D posted 12-14-2000 01:15 PM UE 3 =□
Sinner-saint, if you know who I am then pick up the phone. We can settle this much
easier than you whining on a global scale. You've taken all of this very personally.
Maybe it's conviction.
William Wallace II □ posted 12-14-2000 01:21 pm LOl □ ^
Member
Galatians 2:11-14 "When Peter came to Antioch, I (Paul) opposed him to his face,
because he was clearly in the wrong. ..When I saw that they were not acting in line with
the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, 'You are a Jew, yet you live
like a Gentile and not like a Jew..."
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-14-2000).]
William Wallace II 0 posted 12-14-2000 01 :25 pm L 23 I O
Member
I Corinthians 5:5,12-13 "...hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may
be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. What business is it of mine to
judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those
outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:32 PM u£?]
Galatians 5:12 "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and
emasculate themselves. You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your
freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is
summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' If you keep on biting
each other watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:34 PM [_£2I =H
Psalm 5:4-5 "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot
dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:36 PM [jHI C3 W?
I Timothy 5:8 "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his
immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
cell'me
Member
D posted 12-14-2000 01:37 PM [_£3I
Will,
Do you ever listen to youself? Can you not hear the absurd hypocrisy in your last
reponse to sinner-saint? Why is it that when you rant and rave about your perceptions
on the state of manhood in society, it's revolutionary? However, when sinner-saint
objects to the manner in which you convey this message you accuse him of "whining on
a global scale"?
Again, your posture of arrogance is in complete contrast to the Christ-hymn (Phil. 2:5-
11) I mentioned in an earlier post. I suggest you refrain from slamming the use of
Scripture by amnesiac until you have more fully evaluated your own.
Again, I am not arguing your position because I disagree, but because it reeks of self-
righteousness and hatred and demagoguery. Look up the definition, Will. I suspect you'll
find (and others, too) your mode of argument fitting nicely there. And it's a mode of
argument that does not belong - save for Jesus - in the Church. If you have neither the
spirit, nor the gifting to couch your position in any way other than with violence, then
step off. You dishonor Christ with your attitude toward others on this bb.
William Wallace II
Member
D posted 12-14-2000 01:37 PM E21
Colossians 3:19 "Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them."
William Wallace II
Member
D posted 12-14-2000 01:39 PM EE =□
Colossians 3:21 "Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become
discouraged."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:41 PM LsEE [21
I Timothy 1:20 "Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over
to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:42 PM L£lE 40
2 Corinthains 13:2 "I have already given you a warning when I was with you the second
time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned
earlier or any of the others..."
wifey poo
Junior Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:44 PM [_£E O
Hey Billy II--How about Ephesians 4?
Be completly humble and gentle, bearing with one another in LOVE. Make every effort to
keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:46 PM [_£E =[21
Hebrews 12:16 "See that no one is sexually immoral..."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:48 PM L£E [21
Hebrews 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over
you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a
burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
cell'me
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:48 PM L£E ^
Will,
Exactly how, might I ask, do you parse out the Galatians 2 : 1 Iff text you refer to in your
post.
For me, the text is about correction not separation. You have continually divided this
thread into the "manly men" and the "pussified" men. You're tone and your tact
screams for separation, not correction. Any attempts to correct you have been met with
hostility and lame insults.
The sharpening is meant to go both ways. You are not above your own need for
correction. Peter himself, the Rock who was there from the beginning, was not above
correction from Paul. So why do you claim to be so much above us as to hammer away
with impunity? Again, get off your soap-box and lose the arrogance.
William Wallace II
Member
D posted 12-14-2000 01:49 PM LatH - □
I Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not
permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:51 PM l£?I
Titus 1:6 "An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, a man..."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:52 PM l£?] E3
Titus 2:6 "Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled."
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 01:55 PM l£3
I Corinthians 11:7-9 "A man ought not to cover his head since he is the image and glory
of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but
woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."
cell'me
Member
D posted 12-14-2000 02:00 PM L£1
hey willy,
Thanks for the lame, disjointed, disconnected biblical regurgitation. I am well aware of
what the Bible says and does not say. Are you? Are you aware that you, yourself, are
not blameless, as your citations note? Do you realize that you are only as much of a
man as the men around you? Any pussified men in your life are a direct reflection of
your own shortcomings and failures. Think on that.
Consider what a lame, miserable job you have done to teach and correct - to disciple -
young men on behalf of God. In short, you suck. You can't do anything more than blow
hard and heavy about this miserable existence you've created by being pussified and
now you yell at all of us to clean up after you. It ain't gonna happen. Not with your
crappy attitude.
[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-14-2000).]
Jebus
Junior Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 03:04 PM l£?I ^
I wanted to say that this started out as something that had the possibility of being a
really good thread. WWII pointed out early in his posts things that I agreed with. Great,
ok so now what could be done to fix this issue? Yell people into submission? No! Prayer
and just being involved in a community where God is lifted up and the men in the
church are able to learn what their roles are.
I don't like Youth pastor ship when it takes the place of parents teaching their kids about
God. That is a cop out on the parent's part and it is also too much responsibility for the
youth pastor that they shouldn't have.
However I do disagree with slinging insults and one-upmanship. That's not what this
place is for. When you signed up for your names when you registered you agreed to the
following
"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any
material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar,
hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a
person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any
copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB."
Now I am aware that we are not talking about copywritten information but the parts
about abusive and profane and hateful language ring true.
Cell do you really think he is going to answer you? I mean really? It's like throwing
lighter fluid on an open flame.
Regardless of weather or not this thread has gotten so much attention the point has
been addressed and as "Men" and not "Pussified Men" we need to look at the situation
and really address it and ways to fix it. That is what being a Manly Man is about. Not
being some guy that can eat his weight in Steak, or chew through a led pipe. Although
those are cool things if you are showing off, that is not the biblical issue originally
addressed in this thread.
It's easy. Just drop the bashing clubs and work towards a solution. Or you will go around
in circles for another 50 or 60 freakin posts.
sinner
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 03:06 PM LO]
"pleasant words (truth) are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." -
proverbs 16:24
wifey poo
Junior Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 03:08 PM l£?1 =■
wow celi'me....
seems you have a bad case of I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I!. This BB isn't written
directly to you. ..unless you are feeling some conviction...
The same tainted, human, loud behavior you find aborhent in Billy. ..you are now
participating in.
Colossians 3:
As God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion,
kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.... Let the peace of Christ rule in your
hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace.
sinner
Member
□ posted 12-14-2000 03:09 PM !j~3
" what a man desires is unfailing love; better to be poor than a liar." - proverbs 19:22
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
D posted 12-14-2000 03:15 PM BIE ^
hey cell me,
how can you state "Do you realize that you are only as much of a man as the men
around you? Any pussified men in your life are a direct reflection of your own
shortcomings and failures."?????? If that were the case with all men (before, present,
and future), then your rational says any pussified men in Christ's life or the Apostles life
ReformUrAss
Member
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
sinner-saint
Junior Member
were results of their "own shortcomings and failures". Of course if your statement is
only applied to WWII, then this implies that you are speaking on a personal level. Thus
stating that you are pussified (you said it yourself), and it's WWII's fault.
well, blaming another person for your sin is a pussified thing to do. Repent, Change,
Praise but what do i know, im only A Corinthian.
□ posted 12-14-2000 03:42 PM LO] □ ^
Ezekiel 9:1-6
Then I heard him call out in loud voice, "Bring out the guards of the city here, each with
a weapon in his hand." And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate,
which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man
clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the
bronze alter.
Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from the above the cherubim, where it had
been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man
clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side and said to him "Go through out the
city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over
all the detestable things that are done in it."
As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without
showing compassion. Slaughter old men, young men, and maidens, women and
children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my santuary." So they
began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
□ posted 12-14-2000 03:51 PM uCS ^
Amen, my brother
□ posted 12-14-2000 05:05 PM L£2I
I would like to concur with and reinterate the point Jebus made. Let's not get hung up on
semantics or personal insults but rather let's discuss to seek a solution to the topic at
hand; that is, what is it that makes a man, and how does a male know that he is or
when he became a man? Does anybody have any ideas/familial or cultural traditions
they want to share? We're going nowhere fast on this topic if all we're doing is arguing
about who's offending who with what language. Start another topic posting if you have
to cyber-vent about Wallace's language, BUT LETS STAY ON THE SUBJECT PLEASE!!!!
haboo
□ posted 12-14-2000 07:03 PM l£?I
WW2
It’s been a day since I posted. A good day to think and struggle with this issue. I guess I
reacted like I did because this ain't something I'm used to from anyone. Whatever.
I agree with your words on the need for men to fill their God-given roles in community.
It's a shame that anyone in the church who is Christ's can live hardened to His call to be
a steward. Yet I point in a mirror because I can't claim to love God enough, give
enough, serve Him enough, praise Him enough, love my neighbor enough, etc. Of
course I can't. We are debtors always -- His grace is priceless. God loves me despite my
total enmity and rebellion? Praise His Holy name! Where can I sign up?!
y'all -
Letting go of the ingrained habits and attitudes that God brings to light in us, that's
where faith has a deeper meaning in our process of sanctification. One side of you
wants God glorified, the other side wants to hang up the towel and live a life of cheap
zugbot
Junior Member
SouthTexasDeathRot
Junior Member
grace, fuzzy on the surface but dying inside. "What the hell? God forgives me. After all
I'm sure He understands what I'm going through. He knows my heart, and He's already
saved me. Halleluia. Let me continue to be an immature brat and resist God forever."
That side of me sucks. I suck. But this isn't about me, it's about all of us, men... and
women. And we all suck. Are we afraid to grit our teeth, fall on our knees, and resist
temptation with the same vigor and wholeheartedness we ought to, in response to our
LORD and Savior? Are we too lazy to devote time to studying God's word and
understanding His counsel and command, and conform? Hope not, church! Cheap grace
is no grace, it's disguised pride and rebellion.
And as far as tithing, caring for widows and orphans, proclaiming the gospel to our
neighbors, treating the opposite sex in accordance to Scripture, etc., you have every
right to feel convicted and tremble if you're guilty of disobedience. Repent, but not in
actions only. Let your actions be the true fruit of your heart! Repent and KNOW the
Lord. It's quite possible to run around and busily try serving God (and fooling our
neighbors) while we don't even know the God we try to serve. Serve God with all your
heart was not one of the commandments. True servanthood and obedience is the
outworking of genuine conformity to Christian character.
So, get to know Jesus! And remember the one rule that never ever changes -- if you
don't agree with what Jesus says, a) He's right and b) you're wrong. Amen.
D posted 12-14-2000 08:40 PM L£2I
The fact remains that in this age, hurting someone^s feelings is the capital crime. To
say a person is wrong or is ignoring responsibilities that they clearly have the duty and
the resources to meet are acts punishable by vilification (and, as manifested on this list,
a lot of name calling and verbal castration).
I need not parlay my experience in this area to any of you. Suffice it to say that I have
lived this phenomena more up close and personal than many of you ever will, and this is
what my experience taught me^
We are living in an age when men and women confess Christ as Lord of their life with
their tongues and disregard Him with their actions (and inactions). They say, ^God is
my king^ and then prostrate themselves to idols of materialism, individual rights,
apathy, convenience, and distilled selfishness ^ taking a shit on the very cross they
confess.
If you have any understanding of the deep tragedy of this, you will not avoid becoming
profoundly grieved and angrily agitated.
And if you follow through on your God mandated responsibility of calling the men and
women in your life to turn from such behavior and toward God, then you too will be
vilified.
Even if you do it more gracefully than WWII.
For that is the nature of Truth and the tale of His disciples,
zugbot
□ posted 12-15-2000 02:39 AM L£?l
WWII
You strike me as an arrogant jerk on a testosterone trip. Come to a mosh pit with me
sometime and then
we'll see who is pussified. Considering how often you post I would say you were the
comp-geek spending
too much time looking for FREE internet Porno, (spending too much looking at others
instead of in the mirror)
SouthTexasDeathRot
Junior Member
newman
Junior Member
cell'me
Member
Let me make a few assumptions about you. You were born somewhere in the Midwest,
your father skipped
out on you when you were a little boy, no male roll models in sight so you grew up from
a bitter little boy
to a bitter big boy with a little knowledge about a God you perceive through tainted
glasses. You look for
others to blame your alcoholism and "pussyness" on so you look completely past
yourself and blame it on
others. Specifically our so called "feministic" society. I am guessing you are either a
fresh out Baptist Bible
College grad, or a underpaid, under appreciated, overworked pastor in some Church on
the verge of failing.
You are probably mid twenties to thirties, white, in a failing marriage, and having a hard
time getting your
Sunday suit to fit over your gluttonous belly. You are extremely frustrated and I suggest
either Marijuana or
professional help. They work about the same.
In closing, Frankly, Sir you seem to strike me as to why there are so many lesbians in
this world.
^Penetrate all the simple minds. They adore you, what a when they stand in line. It's ok
when they pay, they
say you've got the voice. ^
□ posted 12-15-2000 02:50 AM |j31 ^
blah
[This message has been edited by SouthTexasDeathRot (edited 12-16-2000).]
D posted 12-15-2000 05:56 AM L£2I
hi.
someone in your church told me to check out the website, it kind of sucks because i was
really looking for something, i don't really believe in god, but i'm haveing problems with
drinking and depression and i really am searching for somehting. i just wanted you to
know that after reading what kind of people you have in this mars hill, i don't think i'll
ever go to church, you should all be ashamed of how you have represented your church
to the world in the internet, fuck you all.
□ posted 12-15-2000 08:32 AM U3I
I'm answering the bell. Please accept my apologies for participating in this downward
spiral of hurling insults and misrepresenting Christ with my words. That was, and is, the
last thing I wanted to do.
I would dare say that, yes, there is a certain amount of sensing my own conviction in
responding to WWII's posts - in so far as we all exhibit the traits of a fallen and
imperfect humanity. I, like all men, have fallen short in my faith and in my relationships
with others and God. It hurts to remember them at times and to even know I'll keep on
failing. What a worthless man of God I am at times.
Yet, even more so, I believe (or hope) that I have vigorously responded because of the
"bruised reeds" and "flickering flames" that Jesus reminds us he will never break or
snuff out. And I have seen too many good, faithful people unnecessarily hurt and
pushed away from the church by the very tactics employed by Wallace. For what
purpose? To cleanse the temple or church? The temple Christ is most concerned with is
the temple He has made in our bodies - our very lives! How can I, by His grace, be
cleansed from within first - then moving outward in truth and love?
newman - I sincerely pray that you do not take my own misguided attempts to stake out
turf on this bb as any kind of reflection on the larger Mars Hill community. Although I
am not a part of that community, I have great respect for what they are about in faith
and mission. Don't let my episodes of anger and frustration here deter you from
connecting with this community of faith.
again, I apologize for my own sins of arrogance and anger and judgement against
anyone on this board, or even those who may just be listening in. I ask for your
forgiveness in this time.
Prayerfully posted.
[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-15-2000).]
A _Corinthian Q posted 12-15-2000 10:20 am U31
Junior Member
***** 5 QUPI_I 7 EXAS DEATH ROT- you did not describe wallice, you described me (except
i dropped out of bible college, i grew up in cali, and im 23). Next time you want to rant
on someone or something, try to learn more scripture than "I give you every seed
bearing plant GEN 1:29 (?)... and remember to not take any speed at night before
you hop on the internet at 2:50 am, it makes it hard to get some sleep (wow, talk about
late. I guess you were bored at that time) . or were you waiting for your mommy to
tuck you in bed??? OK, i'm sorry for that last remark, after all, i shouldn't pick fights
with high school kids.
******N eW m an - I don't know ya, but if i stopped my belief in God every time some
pagan out here in Seattle told me that i hated gay people, that i don't believe in a
woman's right to choose, or that im an asshole because of my beliefs, i would be just
like them Don't hold God to the words of others, man!!! DO some of your own
thinking, open up the bible and see for yourself. If this offends you, im sorry, im just
tired of trying to candy coat the word of God and the actions his people do, just so i can
try to win a soul??? Im afraid not anymore.
Don't drink, Don't be close-minded, And don't knock my church, or my God
Corinthian
[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-15-2000).]
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Ail times are PT (US)
Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
POST REPLY
Hop to:
General
G ° I
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
JAN
N
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 4.html
2 captures
28 Jan 01 - 19 Nov 02
DEC
◄
2000
28
2001
►
2 (
v'lidrash' A R s ^
UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
Midrash
’ General
Pussified Nation (Page 4)
POST REPLY
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic: Pussified Nation
theslowlearner □ pos ted 12-15-2000 12:03 pm L£H □
Junior Member
I think a lot of trouble (in this topic and in general) started when our mother's and our
grandma's told us that Christians are nice boys (and girls, but that doesn't apply in this
thread) and our fathers either agreed with her or sat back and had another beer or
wasn't there at all. Whichever way it was with our fathers we are/were screwed. Since
we didn't have fathers who attempted to teach us the biblical meaning of manhood (and
if you did fall on your knees and thank the Father from whom all good things come),
most likely because they did not know themselves, we listened to our mothers and
attempted to fit the bill of being "nice boys".
This charade worked until we started realizing that we were not 'nice' but had no point
of reference for sin because we were/are stuck in a Church filled with men in similar
situations who were also attempting to be 'nice boys' so as to please their wifemoms. As
teachers they perpetuate our niceness by giving us the impression that as long as we
are at youth group on Sundays and perhaps Wednesdays we are fine rather than
addressing our sin, giving us a swift kick when needed, and ultimately giving us a
profound love of the Gospel.
Thoroughly confused without even realizing it (true confusion is usually not apparent to
the person confused) we begin indulging our fallen nature by jerking it (perhaps telling
ourselves it is ok as long as we just imagine a white wall and not the girl we sat next to
in class, the bus, church,etc... This is thoroughly disturbing because it means we have
churches full of men who get a hard-on whenever they look at a white wall. I predict the
downfall of Focus on the Family when James Dobson is found in a Motel 6 humping a
piece of white plaster) or flirting with sex seeing how close we can come to intercourse
without actually perpetrating the deed. Our youth pastor helps us with this by creating a
scale of sexual acts, i.e. #1 Holding Flands, #4 Fondling Breasts, #8 Whoops, I hope
you are wearing dark pants because that is going to leave a stain. (Go to any Christian
Self-Destruction Store and pick up any book on sex or relationships, specifically
"Relationships" by Drs. Les & Leslie Parrott, one of their masterpieces in a series of
handbooks for how to be passionless men and frigid women) This becomes a sex
checklist for many that is probably carried into marriage where most men probably hope
they are lucky enough to bring their wives to #10.
In a disjointed fashion we arrive recently at this bulletin board where Mr. Wallace has
spoken the truth about where most of us are at in our manhood, and has spoken it in
love. Fie doesn't love us for the sake of any of us feeling good about ourselves or feeling
enriched, but he loves us for the sake of repentance and change, for the sake of our
wives or wives-to-be and children or children-to-come. The worst thing that anyone
could tell us is that we are OK because we are not, yet this is what most of us have
been hearing all of our lives and we freak out whenever someone tells us otherwise.
Speaking in Love does not mean being nice, but it does mean being truthful. At the risk
of using a bad analogy I will openly wonder whether our past brothers and sisters were
'nice' to one another when speaking on matters dire importance (and I think the issues
raised by Mr. Wallace are important)? Was the the council at Nicea cordial when
standing up to blasphemy of Arianism? Was Martin Luther being nice when attacking the
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
skewter
Junior Member
zugbot
Junior Member
hypocrisy and heresy of the Catholic Church? Perhaps irrelevant questions, yet I have to
wonder whether our notion of love has been so diluted by worldliness that we react with
vitriol whenever someone speaks to us with true love.
Obviosly much of this post is biographical in nature, but I think there are many of you
who identify with some or all of what I have written.
To Newman: You are correct, this is the wrong place for you. We are not here to serve
you and make you feel better about yourself. There are plenty of churches and
organizations out there that will try and fix you and give you better life skills and you
will all have good time being nice boys in hell. Stick around and you may also hear
about the sin of lying.
That will be good day because you are a liar. For Shame.
□ posted 12-15-2000 12:45 PM HIE ^
Amen
D posted 12-15-2000 01:21 PM L£E □
hello everyone.
first off, this thread has been an excellent read, thank you!
here's a thought: one of the big perpetuators of this "pussification" phenomenon is the
lack of a venue for "man to measure man", so to speak.
there are no great institutions anymore, our politicians are not role models, our great
leaders have all gone, life-long military men and officers are retiring from the service in
record numbers, the generation that could build a freighter in 4 1/2 days during
wartime is getting old.
the struggle for food, shelter, etc. is not really a struggle anymore, it's just there, you
can live, it's easy, we simply do not have a visible, undeniable reason to be men right
now, something to make even the laziest of us sit up and take notice, things are
peaceful.
so i say, if we are to build character in each other, and teach each other to be men, than
we have to do it ourselves, it starts here, let's not just keep this thing on a webpage,
lets do something real, let's meet in person, have accountability to each other,
revolutions have always started this way, with regular meetings of godly men.
what do you say, people? are you for real?
□ posted 12-15-2000 01:51 PM l£E ^
Hats off to the slow learner. Great points.
You are absolutely correct that loving someone is not the same as being nice to them.
We have replaced the Biblical mandate of truth and love with the modern equivalence of
affirming and molifying.
Jesus did not come to earth to affirm us in our rebellion, to placate us in our sin. He
came to love us and this is what His love looks like -- God accepts us in our
wretchedness in order to kill us and remake us.
In Bonhoffer's words, when Christ calls a man he bids him come and die. Only when we
die, may we be born again.
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
Gladiator
Junior Member
cell'me
Member
We will remain infants and never grow up in Christ until we learn, as men, to speak the
truth in love. Arguments about Wallace's tact (or lack thereof) digress us from the fact
that looking a man in the eye and telling him to get his ass in gear is an extremely
loving act that, to many, does not seem very "nice".
Paul himself writes in Ephesians 4:14-15 of the direct correlation between being a man
of God and learning to speak the truth in love.
"Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here
and there by every wind of teaching and by the craftiness of men in their deceitful
scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who
is the Head, that is Christ."
Paul loved us enough to call us babies, infants. Conjurs images of diapers, bottles,
pacifiers, and a lot of crying.
Now that wasn't very nice of him, was it?
No. Thank God, no.
zugbot
D posted 12-15-2000 05:25 PM uCS
Excellent points made by Skewter and Slowlearner! I would like to recommend for those
more interested in learning about manhood than sniveling about offensive language;
any of the works of Gordon Dalbey, particularly the book, "Healing the Masculine Soul."
I found it to be pretty powerful medicine.
D posted 12-15-2000 07:18 PM l£?1
To the people criticizing William Wallaces delivery let me ask you a question.
If someone came to you with a brand new SUV, pulled into your driveway and said "Here
Stupid, take this SUV for free."
Would you accept it? I hope you say yes. Then, after answering yes, feel convicted. Have
you not accepted WWII’s cries because it is not good? or because it did not tickle, as an
SUV would tickle?
□ posted 12-15-2000 08:31 PM CO]
slowlearner, et al.
Thanks for the add-ins. Good stuff. It seems to me in reading and re-reading this thread
that many (including myself) have stumbled into a dilemma over semantics re: the word
"love". Study of the Greek and Hebrew languages shows time and time again how
limited our present vocabulary is in distinguishing between the variuous nuances of
words like love.
I have, from the beginning, agreed with Wallace's message. Yes, I believe he has spoken
a relevant, cutting, much needed truth. However, I do not believe that he has spoken it
in love. I could be wrong and if I am, my apologies to WW2. Yet, every time I (or
others) have attempted to address him directly on the issue(s) we are met with disgust
and venom. Where the hell is the love in that?
I'm not talking about being "nice" to me or "mollifying" me - just respect my honest
query. If I am in need of a swift kick in the ass, then so be it. Godly men in my church
are doing this on a regular basis any way. But where does the presupmtion come that
says I have to take this kick in the ass from an arrogant, anonymous guy through a
virtual portal?
And if, in the spirit of midrash, I come to this board for learning and discussion of topics
Gladiator
Junior Member
the patriot
Junior Member
such as these, shouldn't the expectation be that we can respectfully disagree and offer
varying viewpoints? The light and heat from this thread doesn't bother me - the
arrogant tone, personal prejudices and piss-poor attitude does. And if nothing else, that
should be clearly understood
I've heard it said that we ail choose our own heresies. No one is infallible and perfect in
their understanding of God. So, pick your ditch and start the journey.
When I confront issues such as this, that appear to be in a ditch other than my own, the
tendency is to get after it. Fine. But, when the argument distills down to nothing more
than "me-man" and "you-pussy", it has gone astray. There is no love in debasing or
devaluing another person. John the Baptist ranted and raved with the best of them, but
his essential message was: repent! Not, "come over to my house, hike up your skirt and
I'll pretend like I give a shit." Come on, where is the love in that?
Paul was vigorous in his defense of the Gospel. However, his rants were, for the most
part, limited to people he was directly or indirectly shepherding. These were faith
communities Paul was somewhat intimate and fairly knowledgeable of. Will knows
absolutely nothing about the people (men) He is ranting to here. And that, more than
anything else, pisses me off. Again, I say, "hey great message, a little harsh, can we
talk?" No, we can't. Because the "self-appointed king" is too right or too scared to have
a real conversation. Where is the love in that? Sadly, I still don't see it.
p.s. Gladiator - Not much conviction here. That analogy about the SUV was a weak
attempt. The comparison between someone calling me stupid and giving me an SUV and
Will claiming some divine right to spout personal prejudices and hatred in the name of
God is pretty far apart.
□ posted 12-15-2000 09:17 PM l£?1 ^
Cell'me,
I ask you then to answer my question,
"If someone came in to your driveway and said here Stupid take this SUV for free."
Would you accept it?
□ posted 12-15-2000 10:21 PM LO] □
First off to Gladiator, I would praise God for providing me with a new SUV, then I would
forgive the chump for calling me "stupid".
Second To everyone else, I think it is very impressive that you all cuss. Cussing on a
message board makes you very cutting edge, hats off to you. Very seeker sensitve, and
relevant. For many of you I am sure it is the first you cussed in a long time. Welcome
back.
Third, I find it strange that you all have unwritten rules of what message board ethics
should look like, as if the Bible adresses how Will or anyone else should act on the
message board. I dont think God gives a rats butt if we love one another on this thing. I
am not offending a person, I am offending "Squatting bear" whoever that is. Did Jesus
die for Username "Squatting Bear". Dont act like we are engaged in real relationship
here. We are not. Jesus would tell us to log off, get a life, and quit wasting time acting
like your opinions matter. They don't!
Forth, message boards simply enable people without friends and without an audience to
spout off their ignorance and give them the illusion that they are engaged in "real"
minstry and debate. I hope many of you dont have an audience because you are simply
dangerous and foolish, and millstones are very heavy when you are trying to swim.
cell'me q pos ted 12-15-2000 10:22 pm EMI
Member
Gladiator,
Based on these narrow parameters you've given me - I'd have to say, "Yes"!
However, I doubt it would be that easy for me to accept without some attempt on my
part to ascertain the motivations behind such a gift. The person offering the gift seems
to have real regard for me, as evidenced by his comment, so why give it.
Is it: to ingratiate himself to me; earn my allegiance; put me in my place; set me up for
some future humilation; flaunt his obviously higher earning power; expose my
materialistic tendencies; position me for an accident; or what? I sincerely doubt I would
just take the keys and say, "hey, I never knew ya, but thanks for the wheels".
That is what I have been attempting on this board. I am receiving Will's message lound
and clear and like much of what he has to say. Unfortunately, any appearance in not
accepting his message in total, results in some juvenile rant against any inquiry. I fail to
see the reasoning behind his rage. Some are calling it love and I'm not buying it.
To finish off your question - if the delivery of that SUV depended on me taking it without
any doubts or questions or reservations - then NO! I would not take the vehicle. If the
person bringing it to me is too much of a jerk to answer some simple, honest questions
about why, then screw it. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have it. Just not at the
expense of . . . whatever may be in store.
I call it common sense.
the patriot q pos ted 12-15-2000 10:24 pm LMI □
Junior Member
First off to Gladiator, I would praise God for providing me with a new SUV, then I would
forgive the chump for calling me "stupid".
Second To everyone else, I think it is very impressive that you all cuss. Cussing on a
message board makes you very cutting edge, hats off to you. Very seeker sensitve, and
relevant. For many of you I am sure it is the first you cussed in a long time. Welcome
back.
Third, I find it strange that you all have unwritten rules of what message board ethics
should look like, as if the Bible adresses how Will or anyone else should act on the
message board. I dont think God gives a rats butt if we love one another on this thing. I
am not offending a person, I am offending "Squatting bear" whoever that is. Did Jesus
die for Username "Squatting Bear". Dont act like we are engaged in real relationship
here. We are not. Jesus would tell us to log off, get a life, and quit wasting time acting
like your opinions matter. They don't!
Forth, message boards simply enable people without friends and without an audience to
spout off their ignorance and give them the illusion that they are engaged in "real"
minstry and debate. I hope many of you dont have an audience because you are simply
dangerous and foolish, and millstones are very heavy when you are trying to swim.
the patriot q pos ted 12-15-2000 i0:32 pm LMI =H
Junior Member
do I need to say it again?
skewter
Junior Member
□ posted 12-15-2000 10:36 PM L23I □ ^
amen patriot!
if this is thread is really describing an actual, real-life issue, than it's important to realize
cell'me
Member
SouthTexasDeathRot
Junior Member
skewter
Junior Member
that there is zero chance of anything besides a discussion about it here on this message
board.
what's needed is fellowship, accountability, and god. did you guys watch fight club?
picture that, only add god that's what we need, as iron sharpens iron... and ail that.
□ posted 12-15-2000 10:41 PM l£U ^
saw the movie, loved the movie, and I was kind of pissed when I saw that a Rev. Tyler
Durden showed up here. Damn, should have got that screen name first.
besides that, great point.
[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-15-2000).]
□ posted 12-15-2000 11:04 PM LO]
A Corinthian
mommy tuck me into bed? And what makes you think that my mom would be nice
enough to do that? Maybe I am not so well versed in the bible as you, a Bible college
drop out, but at least I try. It seemed to fit.
Oh, and I don't take speed. I think we are getting off topic.
All~
Fight club was a beautiful movie. It made me realise that none of this is true. It is all in
my head. Did I make you up?
Maybe I made God up.
Just one more thought. Now that you realise that there is a Problem STOP talking about
it and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! ! ! !
CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???? ~no~
he he he
□ posted 12-15-2000 11:16 PM l£?1 "O ^
an odd thought...
i wrote a letter a while back to some design outfit that was putting on an anti-game
installation at a museum in sf. it was all about how violent video games are bad for this
and that and blah, blah, blah, my point was that in a society where all the necessities
come so easy, there's not much that's actually difficult, have you ever been hungry?
lacked shelter? feared for your life? i haven't, there's not much that really taxes us as
men. i am never really in competition with anyone, i am completely uncompelled to
excel, hence, a computer game that pits opponents together in a digital arena to fight
with basically just their wits and reflexes is actually fulfilling a very primal purpose that
is completely absent in my day to day life, a pretty crappy subsitute, but it's helped me
see the connection.
men are becoming wusses because there is no insurmountable task, there is no
imminent danger, there is no CRISIS, so everything gets whacked, our leaders are a
bunch of imminently corruptible yet otherwise unremarkable nobodies because nothing
more is called for. now, this is where i really start to worry, because historically ail
empires have reached this point, after a while, when the societal goal is no longer
simply to LIVE, but just to ENTERTAIN yourself, you start to see more and more excess
and less and less rules, where is the moral law that can contain me, an american, a
vanguard of the world's cultural and scientific elite? we're just like the greeks or romans
were before those empires collapsed, as a society we belive our culture, our science,
and our will are infallible and inalienable, we're not the first empire to think this way,
but we might be the first empire that doesn't have barbarians at the gate, so to speak, i
think that we are at the part of the societal cycle where historically, it's all about to
burn, the problem is, who's left to do the burning? there is a pattern of village to
community to city to nation to empire to village again, it's played itself out in every
empire ever on this earth, the next time around, though, maybe there won't be any
separate nations left, maybe it will play itself out on a global scale, and instead of
barbarians at the gate, it will be god himself, cool, huh? but then again it would suck
pretty bad, too...
anyway, sorry for the tangent.
sinner-saint
Junior Member
D posted 12-15-2000 11:35 PM EE
WW2
If you get back to this thread (or if not),
Please forgive me. The arrogance is mine.
My prayers are with you.
s-s
Elder-Bob
Junior Member
□ posted 12-15-2000 11:46 PM u£E ^
*** * ****** \/\J\/\J J I
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a
great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.
When my wife tries to show me how to do something, for example, I simply remind her
that I Timothy 2:11-12 says that "A woman should learn in quietness and full
submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she
must be silent." End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding
some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the
Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to
them. How should I deal with this?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day
and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of
menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried
asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he
should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it
is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.
I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is
there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank
you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
[This message has been edited by Elder-Bob (edited 12-16-2000).]
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12-16-2000 09:16 AM L£2I
Thank you Skewter!
Patriot, point well taken about Midrash's limitations and the need of a balanced life, it is
absolutely unreasonable to think of a cyber chat room as community and even worse to
try to use it as a substitute. All one could possibly hope for (and this is the best case
senario) is some thought provoking dialogue -the fact this dialogue exists online
shouldn't automatically disqualify it's content or validity as communication/exchange of
ideas.
Ok, here's my rant for today....
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And
after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. And the
tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones
become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread
alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" Then the devil took
Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to
Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give His
angels charge concerning you' and 'On their hands they will bear You up, lest You strike
Your foot against a stone.'" Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You
shall not put the Lord your God to the test."' Again, the devil took Him to a very high
mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; and he said
to Him, "All these things will I give to You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus
said to him, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and
serve Him only.'" Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to
minister to Him. (Matt 4:1-11)
In most native american tribal cultures, when a youth (in most tribes only the boys, in
some both sexes) became of age, he would leave all human contact and go alone into
the wilderness to fast and pray for days to receive spiritual guidence, a vision. This
vision was to carry this person throughout the remainder of his life, providing him with a
direction, an identity, protection, and knowlege of to whom he worships (either God or
some sort of spirit being). I find it very interesting that Jesus, before beginning his
ministry would in essence practice the Vision Quest. So my question to all the Christian
men seeking manhood out there, what's your vision, your direction, your purpose? Why
do you even get out of bed? Where are you going and leading your family to, and why?
If you as a Christian are to be Christ-like, when did you go to fast for days seeking the
face of God in the temple made by His hands?
Call me off my rocker, but how come Christian men don't Vision Quest?
D posted 12-16-2000 12:51 PM L$3] =□
In response to elder Bob.
This is a simple theological question that any real elder meeting Biblical criteria could
answer without complication. So, I'm assuming by your tone you are either an
unbeliever, or possibly a Christian with a very low view of God's Word and in need of
some sound theological instruction. In either case, I'll respond briefly because you need
a man to teach you theology and I am happy to aid in your education.
The law can be divided into there areas. Ceremonial laws surrounded the temple,
priesthood, sacrifices and the like. Civil laws related directly to the governance of the
nation of Israel as a theocracy governed by God. Moral laws related to the conduct of
God's people. All of God's laws were given to expose human sin and foreshadow Christ
(Hebrews 10:1) and send us running to Him for grace and his righteousness to be
imputed to us because we could never earn any of our own (Romans 5:20-21, Galatians
2:21, 3: 19-25) In Christ all of the law was fulfilled (Matthew 5:17), and now Christ's
perfection is given by Him to His elect (Romans 10:4, 2 Corinthians 5:21).
William Wallace II
Member
Consequently, we are no longer bound to the law but instead live under God's grace
(Romans 6:14). However, the law is still good and perfect and shows us how the Spirit
of God desires to work through us and change us to obey God not by our own good
nature or works (which we do not posess), but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit in
each child of God (Romans 8:1-17).
For a further understanding that much of the Old Testament cermonial law and civil law
is not binding upon believers in this present age you should read the entire book of
Hebrews. However, I would strongly add that the Old Testament Law remains profitable
for the believer and does have merit to their understanding of God and themselves (1
Timothy 1:8, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Also, since Israel is no longer a theocracy, no longer
has priesthood, and no longer has a temple (and has not since 70 A.D.) God has
completely eliminated any attempt to live by ceremonial and civil law. The moral law,
however, remains binding and universal upon believers. For example 9 of the 10
commandments are spoken of as binding in the New Testament (opinions vary on the
Sabbath), and things like murder, stealing, lying etc. are spoken of frequently
throughout the New Testament.
Lastly, the issues you have raised are best answered by Reformed Theologians under the
topic of Law and Gospel.
□ posted 12-16-2000 01:17 PM L£2] □
This thing has become a bloody mess. You quasi-homo thinking men have screwed the
whole thing up. But, thank you for making my point so clearly.
I am not a woman. So, scrap all you want. Hurl insults. Throw your petty theological
darts. Have a good cry. Whatever.
But do not lose sight of the issue. At some point you will all learn that I don't give a crap
how you "feel." Why, because I am not talking about your right to your feelings. That is
the result of feminism, psychology, and atheism which says we are all good and need to
have freedom to express our goodness and receive goodness in kind.
If you are a man I want to teach you a new word.
Duty.
I am sick of hearing about feelings. I am likewise sick of hearing about rights. I want to
talk about duties. I don't want to talk about you. Look at this string. People acutally
take me personally. Do you think I lay awake at night and wonder about you as an
individual and your feelings and your rights? No, I think about God, His glory, and my
duties to ensure He gets His glory. My feelings and rights turn me into an idol of self-
worship that mitigates against Him. I am screaming at you to do likewise. And yes I am
screaming, why, because listen to all the noise we've got to cut through. Even from
"Christian" men who are basically practical queers that freak out when a man shows up
because it become obvious that they are completely pussified.
I had this conversation with a very godly, mature, and anti-feminist woman last night
and after doing so I am convinced that pretty much every woman is a feminist and
every man is a coward. She asked me how I felt about all that was going on in my life. I
told her that while I am not Data from Star Trek, that I don't ask that question a lot.
She asked me why, and I told her it is because I am a man and not a woman. I told her
that she thought like a woman (relationship, connecting, feelings, emotions, rights) and
that I simply could not function in the things God has called me to lead if I were a
woman. She was offended and said that I was sexist. And, I responded by asking her if
I could do her job (wife, mother, sister, daughter, Christian woman). She laughed and
said "of course not."
To which I asked, "so how come a woman can say that a man could never be like her
and it's not a problem. But, if a man says that a woman could never be like him then it's
sexism?"
sinner-saint
Junior Member
She replied, "I see where you're going. Maybe we've just believed a lie and you've
stumbled onto the truth. Maybe we just all feel sorry for women and assume men are
victimizers and women are victims so they get a blank check to run free and the men
should shut up and take it."
The truth is this, we were created male and female. A man is not a woman and a woman
is not a man. A man may buy breasts and a woman may buy a penis, but that doesn't
change creation. Being a woman is an incredible gift of God and anyone who denies the
woman her feminine dignity should be shot. Hear me. I am not saying men are good
and women are bad. I am saying they are different not because of culture or sexism but
because of God's created order and fully equal designed for cooperation, not
competition, under the headship of the male with the female functioning as the
supporting helper.
Our problem is a completely androgynous world that believes, wrongly, that we come
into this world gender neutral and get to be socialized and eventually pick a gender.
But, in our post-war, post-industrial world we no longer need men. They won the wars,
built the roads, created the machinery and now that we're fat and happy women have
risen to power through more covert means of directing the conversation to
victimization, hurt feelings, rights, power struggles and the like. The response to this
soft feminism is not hard chauvinism, but Biblical manhood and womanhood whereby
we clearly define and enforce men's and women's roles.
As a man, you have duties. From this post forward I will be speaking very forthrightly to
Christian men about their duties to tell the truth, be courageous and strive for long
forgotten virtues like stoicism, honor, courage, discipline, sacrifice, excellence,
headship, and competition.
We have only begun. Read this string. We have much left to do. And, yes the movement
is real. The Founding Fathers are chosen, headquarters have been purchased, the
Constitution is laid down and we convene in January in Seattle. Then, we will be posting
nationally on our own web site and in the Spirit of Fight Club we will go national. Some
cities have already contacted us and are online for Operation Backlash.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-16-2000).]
□ posted 12-16-2000 04:12 PM E3 ^
In response to everything:
Perhaps we should talk about the parameters of grace as defined biblically. This is a
sidenote to the whole thread of biblical manhood, but as long as we don't rabbit-trail
(everyone), this is foundational.
Wallace recently posted a response to Elder Bob shedding some biblical light on the Law
and Gospel tension in a believer's life. And here, if you aren't a believer in Christ Jesus
as both Savior and Lord Almighty, you will get tripped up and confused with every step.
Not until one understands the meaning and purpose of Law will they have any grasp of
the need, the fullness, and the fruits of God's saving grace poured out through the
sacrifice of Jesus.
I could hardly exhaust this topic in a post, or in twenty posts, and as hard as I try and as
much thought and wisdom I pour into this writing, the blessed fact remains that coming
to an understanding of Law and Gospel is the work of the Holy Spirit on our hearts and
minds. So I wholeheartedly point all who query to read the Bible and not look for a
quick answer in a single Scriptural passage. Read the bible. Want to make it easier?
Okay, read only the New Testament, then go back and (whatever order you decide to
read it all) read the entire bible. Take all the time you need. It takes awhile, and I
suggest you read everything as many times as you can and put some thought into it. So
start now. And do it till you're dead. And don't ever conclude you've got it all down. Live
on what you know, but don't stop there.
That said, back to the parameters of grace...
I'm going to assume everybody's heard or read John 3:16. And unfortunately (and to
their own perish), that's about all most people care to know and claim. It's a beautiful
verse with impactful meaning. It's the truth of God that whoever believes in the unique
Son of God, begotten of God, shall not perish but have everlasting life. But taken alone
this verse has been used as a copout for every person who in truth does NOT actually
believe in the person, work, and word of Christ and holds to the nonexistent eleventh
commandment, "Thou shall not judge". This is both a cause and complement to the
worldwide epidemic of men without balls or fortitude, without honesty or courage,
without spines and without conviction.
I know too many people who think the entire meaning of the bible is "God loves
everyone. Don't judge anyone. Be happy in the filth of your life and let your eyes be
misty with sentimental visions of the day God welcomes you through the pearly gates.
The end. Amen". What a crock! I lived with that mentality for nearly twenty years and
my whole vision of God was that he was a helper who conformed his will and desire to
mine, and when I asked for things to my own destruction, he'd bring it to pass, because
it was all about me.
Then I woke up, praise the Lord!
Every pussified man runs around trying to live his autonomous, "independant" life
without a serious care of who he really is, who God is, who his neighbor is, what's
expected of him, what loving means. He's selfish (both by nature and by choice) and he
seeks his own glory. As many have alluded to before, he bows to every pressure from
the feministic world to appease, or (just as bad) he inflates himself with machoness and
further proclaims his independent, yet domineering self-identity. And since he's his own
man, and since he knows what's best for himself, any opposition to his precious self-
idolatry is met with the blanket ammunition of "Don't judge me. Jesus taught not to
judge". He did? Funny you mention Jesus, because I was wondering what else he
taught? You hold to those words like they're the unshakeable foundation of life, but you
can't tell me anything else he said. If this Oprah-Jesus is such a fundamental part of
your worldview, teach me your religion, you proud worm, and I'll show you who your
god is.
The worm who thinks like this is outside the parameters of God's saving grace.
This sounds shocking to most people, because today the word grace is synonymous to
words like "fuzzy", "blanket", "comfort",
"tolerance", etc. and the word Truth is questioned altogether. Christ came full of grace
and truth (see John 1:1-18), and without truth, grace is not grace. It cannot be. For a
good survey on Truth, see the entire book of Romans. Particularly, for the verdict laid
on ail of mankind, see chap. 1:18-23 and 3:10-18. God is not happy with sin. He never
will be. God is angry and wrathful toward sinners.
1 John 1:5-7 -- "This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you,
that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with
Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the
light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus
Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."
If you think for a moment that being covered by grace means you can totally disregard
the commands of God, you live your life in vain. You do not know God. You do not fear
God. You do not love God. You will not see God. You are lawless and vile and already
condemned. "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of
the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be
carnally minded is DEATH, but to be spritually minded is LIFE and PEACE. Because the
carnal mind (the sinful nature) is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of
God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Romans 8:5-8.
You can try to be "good" with one of two motives. You can do so to make God and your
neighbor happy with you, which is doing it by your own strength, on the outside while
your heart is wicked inside. This is also doing it to your own glory, trying to earn a pass
into heaven and good marks with God, pats on the back from your "brother". This is
moralism and self-worship. Those who go this route are notably marked with constant
anxiety because they never stop evaluating themselves and judging others, and in their
heart of hearts they know they can never be good enough, but try to fool themselves
anyway.
OR, you can do all good works IN LIGHT of God's full revelation in His word. That is, for
those who believe, yes God is truly Good, yes I am truly wicked. Yes, God took the
punishment due me and laid it on Christ His Son. Yes, I do not deserve this
immeasurable gift. Yes I am adopted into God's family with the full righteousness of
Christ. Yes, I am in God's grace and sealed to Him by His Spirit. Yes, Praise God, I will
ever be with Him! And yes, by all means, I want to work out this precious salvation with
fear and trembling, for it is God who works in me both to will and to do according to His
good purpose. I am not my own, I was bought for a price. May Your will be done. Amen.
Sin still has consequence. Evil is always evil, whether you are saved or perishing. So
wake up! Sin no more. Be clothed in Christ and walk a walk worthy of the calling with
which you've been called. Do good, delight in God's commands, love truth, hate evil, be
conformed to the image of Christ!
Be a man.
sinner-saint
Junior Member
□ posted 12-16-2000 04:33 PM LO]
WW2,
In your list of long forgotten virtues, you mentioned competition. Could you expand on
this? Thanks, s-s
skewter
Junior Member
D posted 12-17-2000 06:56 PM l£3 =0
pastor mark weighed in on this topic tonight, coincidence?
Porkfry
Member
□ posted 12-18-2000 10:26 AM u£?]
I was speaking with a friend of mine today and he brought up something that I didn't
think about, that I think might fit in here.
Our Generation has never had to "grow up". WE haven't had a war (skirmishes don't
really count against a world war), a depression, or some other kind of catastrophe that
has really made the men stand up and be men.
All we have to do is sit and play video games, or watch sports kick on the WWF. Our
lives are centered around fixing up our Cars to make them up to par with the next guy.
Or even our computers for that matter. RAM becomes more important than manhood.
DSL or A cable modem is WAY better than some sort of "relationship". A Dolby surround
sound system with a 88 inch flat screen TV with a DVD player becomes the new "girl
friend". Our things provide "men" today with more companionship than actual
companionship. So then when actual companionship comes into the picture it's only for
something physical. If it gets to that point there is not real reason to get married
because in the end what kind of commitment are you going to be willing to have in a
disposable society. Where it costs more to fix something than buy a new product.
I like taking trains of thought or societal worldviews and try to see their ultimate end.
This one however slipped past me that a capitalist society with no conflict would lead to
an extreme love for things and a disassociation with the rest of man kind.
Porkfry
wifey poo o posted 12-18-2000 01:47 PM [j31 O
Junior Member
Men, I salute you. Thank you for the realization of your God-given duties. I will continue
to pray that you will be strong and courageous.
You can pray that the years of femi-education will be stripped from the women in your
lives as you love and serve them as Christ did the church. And that they will awaken as
women excited about their God, the plan of His creation, and the men He has called
them to serve and love.
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
D posted 12-18-2000 05:06 PM lsLS
Porkfry,
Correction, there was a war, anyone remember the Gulf War? It was a weird sensation
sitting at home watching my friends on CNN taking Iraqis prisoner. Made me feel very
old.
KatieVonbora
Junior Member
□ posted 12-18-2000 05:47 PM HSI =E3 ^
I am a woman and I am not in any way offended by the word pussy or pussified in this
thread. I believe that this is a long time coming. This is an important issue within
American, paticularly Christian society. To give you some background to know where I
come from
I am a VERY happily married, indian, Christian woman. I am childless, not for biological
reasons. I do not stay barefoot and pregnant and I happen to be one of the MOST
stubborn people you will ever meet. I have to control my sailors tongue and I love to
argue.
But I understand that as both a Christian and a wife it is my responsiblity to submit(not
roll over and die) to my husband. Two people cannot walk thru a door at the same time,
one must lead. It is not a matter of superiority or one being less worthy than the other.
I support this movement wholeheartedly. Because before we can be the wives and
mothers that we should be our husbands must figure out the paradox of masculinity.
I must say though that I have seen more whining in the last four pages than at a full
days work at a childcare center. You are all getting off the major point. ...what does
being a man mean? It isn't grunting and pounding of chests, although I have seen alot
of that. That is a good start I guess....
When will this posting on the BB end and the actual accountablity begin? Because if all
you do is talk you are all proving yourselves liars.
Porkfry
Member
D posted 12-18-2000 07:17 PM
Squatting Bear:
Well that was the "Conflict" I was talking about. A good friend of mine was in one of the
"Tank killer" divisions of the army and he had a number of horrific pictures that he
showed me how ugly the fight was. Although I know a lot of people died and I am not
trying to belittle their pain due to Gulf war syndrome or watching one of their buddies
die. In the grand scale of world wars.. .well that wasn't as big as W.W.II (not William
Wallace) Or W.W.I. I didn't remember a huge call to arms being heard through the
streets where everyone went to benefit the war. I don't recall my mother leaving her
job in the dental industry to go to work in a bomb factory. ..or off somewhere making
ships or planes.
hopeful
Member
shaun
Junior Member
So when I say war I am looking at the one's that have shaped our country due to the
huge Sociological changes that arose due to the war. Anyone remember "Rosie the
Riveter"? I don't recall any pro-war propaganda posters like that. Plus that was the first
time women really left the "home" to go to work.
Yes the Gulf war was bad. In the grand scheme of things it was a "war" but not every
man had to go. Not everyone was as effected as people were during W.W.I, W.W.II and
Vietnam.
Those brought about social change and conflict inside the system. We. ..me. ..everyone in
our generation (post boomer) have really lived in a nice cushy environment. Conflict
Brings change. For without conflict you can't grow.
Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time through...
Porkfry
□ posted 12-18-2000 09:14 PM [_£31 ^
Anybody interested in a film that relates to the pussified topic. I regretfully saw "What
Women Want". The man is pussified. The theme is feministic.
*****Twisted Quotes from the film.*****
"Only a gay man can satisfy a women in the sack."
"Women are Knights in shining armor instead of men"
"Its a womens world out there"
It made me sick! ®
□ posted 12-19-2000 04:34 AM uO] □ ^ 1 ?
William Wallace II,
In your response to Elder-Bob you assumed by his tone that he was "either an
unbeliever, or possibly a Christian with a very low view of God's Word and in need of
some sound theological instruction..." I propose, as you proceeded with your good
explanation of Law, Gospel, and Grace, that that was the entire point of his post, to
remind you of this... That the scripture I Timothy 2:11-12 ("A woman should learn in
quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority
over a man; she must be silent.") can be included in the category of Law and there is
little grace with which you have dealt women in some of your posts. I maintain not all of
your posts, and you have graciously apologized for 'backhanded' tone and in turn dealt
respectfully with women. So, a danger, I think has been made obvious, is the extreme
in the application of that specific scripture and others like it. Now I see that there are
beginings of constructive discussions about the role of men and women in the home,
church, and world, in response to some very valid complaints and points you have
brought up. Let us continue in this.
What is this about "... You quasi-homo thinking men have screwed the whole thing up?"
Ecc. 7:13 says, "Consider the work of God; For who can make straight what He has
made crooked?" and, vice versa.... If this movement, as ReformUrAss has brought up,
is the way of of God, then who can screw it up?
shaun
[This message has been edited by shaun (edited 12-19-2000).]
D posted 12-19-2000 08:57 AM [_£2I ^
A Corinthian
Junior Member
Porkfry
Member
Jebus
Junior Member
HEY REFORM!!!!! When this starts, inn taking glatiator, and your cage faze, baby
calvinistic, butt down
D posted 12-19-2000 09:52 AM HSI
I'm totally in! Last night I was chillin with my wife and out of the blue she asked me if I
was reading the "Pussified nation" thread on the Midrash. I was totally blown away.
Manly because I didn't know she read the Midrash.
So she tells me that Mark's sermon was almost Verbatim from this thread. ..So I started
to wonder who WWII actually is. So I come in and I read the entire thread and I just
wanted to say that I'm not so sure it's Mark. Either way. ..that's neither here nor there.
The main point to this post is the following. I have only been a Christian for about 2 and
half years. From where I stand I think I'm doin ok in the "Man of God" area although I
could be sorely mistaken. That being the case I know that I have more to work on.
Mainly because I didn't really have a "stable" home environment with a real Father
figure or a manly figure for that matter. All the men that were in my life either beat the
Crap out of my mom or were drug addicts. I never really had a good example to look up
to as to what a Godly man should be like. So now I am at the point in my life where I
want to be the Man that God has called me to be. I want to be the spiritual leader of my
household. I want to be a good example to other young men in the church as to how to
be in the role that God has given them.
So with that said I want to sign up for the Movement. My only desire in this life is to do
the will of God and to be a Good husband for my wife. I grew up pussing out I don't
want to do that any more.
Over the past 2 and a half years God has really been working on me in Overdrive. I have
come to the realization that I have duties that God has set up and I want to learn more
about those duties.
My life is Forfeit. My feelings are Forfeit. My wants are forfeit (although my self-centered
nature doesn't like that one very much)My Rights are forfeit. I am here for one reason.
To Give glory to God in all things.
So where do I go to hook up and gimme the papers to sign. I'm in.
Porkfry
[This message has been edited by Porkfry (edited 12-19-2000).]
D posted 12-19-2000 01:30 PM [jHI ^
I find this thread so, so interesting.
I don't know how to take it all. I have no intentions of throwing scripture anywhere
because honestly I could take scripture and use it to back up any stance. Plus I am not
the theologian a number of you appear to be.
So I won't stand up and try to impress any of you. Honestly I don't care to. So with that
said I will get to the meat of this post and quit the foreplay.
We have a two camps here. The Wallace camp, who could read the things he has written
and take it as it is. Because of that they (being the people aligned with Wallace) have
no intentions of treating women like second rate citizens. They have no intention of
keeping their wives tied up in the kitchen, bare foot and pregnant. They are ready to
stand up and take the Ground that they are supposed to. They are (hopefully) going to
put this into action and not leave here with the energy one would have after a really
good motivational speech. Where the "high" wears off in a matter of days. My hopes are
that this high won't actually be a high as when a person first comes to Christ and wants
to convert the world. But one just as our walk with Christ becomes as much a part of
you as your walk with Christ. If you believe that Christ Died for you then you also have
to believe that God has a role for you. That also being the case Man hood/woman hood
is as much a part of your Christian walk as Baptism or Communion or being a Good
husband to your wife or a part of your community.
Then there is the non-with Wallace side of the argument that is bent about the words
used in WWII's posts. Either they believe he is not being as compassionate as Christ
might have been in this situation. Or his choice of words might not have been conducive
to a great conversation. Where both sides walk away feeling that they are in the right
and they can feel good about their decision whatever that may be. The problem with
that is that this is a two sided argument. You either are on one side and you are moving
toward a better tomorrow where you are a man or you stay where you are in your
passive world. Cut and dry. Black and white. God Calls us to something we do it. If not
we (and God) call that sin. Not everything gets put in a nice user friendly package. Not
every time you get reprimanded are you going to like it. However we are called to hold
each other (in the body) accountable for their actions. That being the case, I feel that
WWII is completely in the right. The body doesn't just mean your local church. If you
are my Bother/sister in Christ I am going to hold you accountable. And I pray that you
would do the same. If you don't (just as with manly hood) you aren't doing your job.
William: I don't know your heart. I can't judge that. God will. And that being the case if
God has convicted you about this then my only suggestion (although it seems you have
already done this) is to pray about it and make sure you are where you should be. I
have a feeling you are in the right place due to the fact that your focus/motivation is the
glory of God. GREAT! Keep that up. That is the point. God gets all the attention and we
are just the instruments by which he gets it. Just make sure you don't get all high and
mighty if this thing really goes through. I am interested to watch what happens. I will
check back here often to watch it's progress.
OK to all of you who read this:
Screw his tone, Screw his choice of words. If you get hung up on that you are missing
the big E on the eye chart. The focus (if you didn't know this already) is that Men
currently aren't men. They are women, and women are men (not in the physical sense).
Work towards changing that. You are called to. God is going to have words with you on
either side of the gender coin if you don't find your place. Rejoice in your role. Rejoice in
where God has put you. Both have dignity and both have a purpose. A great purpose.
The Glory of the living God.
I know of no other thing in our world where you have that much of an honor behind your
actions.
William Wallace II
Member
□ posted 12 - 19-2000 01:31 PM !j~3 □
Now we are getting somewhere. One fundamental issue to recognize is that since Adam
every one of us is trying to avoid any and all authority in our lives in an effort to
become our own gods sitting on our own thrones ruling over our own kingdoms and
issuing our own decrees.
Pastors don't want authority, so they don't have legitimate peer based elders ruling with
and over them. Men don't go to churches with other strong me who will call them to
their duties. Women do not want strong men who will rule. Children do not want strong
parents who will discipline them. And, none of us wants Christ as Lord, but we're happy
to take Him as Savior. This amounts to saying that you'll let Jesus die for all your sin
but your life is still your own, and this is simply not a Christian. Christ Himself came not
to do His own will, but the will of the Father and taught us to pray "thy will be done."
Jesus was completely selfless, but not for us, instead for the glory of the Father and we
happen to be benefactors of that but not the primary focus of Jesus efforts.
Think about it, who do you willingfully submit to? Who has any spiritual authority over
you?
ReformUrAss
Member
William Wallace II
Member
William Wallace II
Member
If you are single (particularly a woman) and living on your own this may seem like the
oddest question you have ever considered because the intent of your life is to have your
own bank account, your own home, your own car, your own schedule, and your own life
under your complete and total rule to ensure you have your "rights" and live with
"convenience". Can you possibly even think that this looks to the world like Jesus
Christ?
This sort of autonomous independent living assumes that we indeed not sinful and prone
to self indulgence and error and denies that a primary function of the gospel is to
reconcile us one to another as we are reconciled to God in Christ. The entire pattern of
logic is "worldly" and hellish, which would explain it's consequences that surround us.
D posted 12-19-2000 01:32 PM LJ31 =□
I just heard something that made me wanna puke.
Did you know that only 4% of evangelical "Christian" "men" in America tithe out of their
income?
I could cuss out my own string on this one but I just leave everybody with this - BULL
SHIT!
Do you realize that when the Bible talked about men giving a tenth of all they own, God
was speaking to people living in what would be called today a third world country.
96 percent of Christian men rob God on an regular basis. And we wonder why the church
in our blessed country is dying like it has some sort of spiritual ebola virus.
[This message has been edited by ReformUrAss (edited 12-19-2000).]
□ posted 12-19-2000 01:50 PM [jiH □ ^
All true. Want to know what's even worse? The average church does not have elders who
even check this. I could tell you of countless churches I know personally where the
elders and pastors don't even tithe to their church and no one knows about it because
no one is checking up on anybody else. Again, noboby wants any authority. Paul seems
to indicate that the tithe was a bottom line lowest level of sacrifice for the believers
under the law, but like all things those of us now under grace should be expected to do
much more (2 Corinthians 8 & 9). The myth is that the money I have is my money and I
get to determine if and how much I give to God. The reality is that everything belongs
to God and I need to ask how much He wants me to borrow from Him for things like
rent and food.
□ posted 12-19-2000 02:07 PM l£?1
Now that we're pulling back fig leaves I'm open to suggestions. The following topics I will
post in the near future and am open to other areas you may want to explore. However,
just because you ask does not mean that I deem it important. So, there will be no
whining.
How a manly man worships his God.
How a manly man takes a bride.
How a manly man pleases a bride.
How a manly man uses his penis.
How a manly man fathers his children.
How a manly man pastors his family.
How a manly man engages sinful men.
How a manly man earns a living.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-19-2000).]
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
□ posted 12-19-2000 02:21 PM L$3] ^
I agree with reform and wallice.... i was part of the 96% of men that stole money from
God it wasnt until i was reading Acts about that man Ananias with his wife, and how
they withheld money they had pledged to God. Peter said that failing to fully pay what
he owed to God for his tithe, Satan filled his heart. And so God killed him, and his wife.
That put some fear of God into me.
I think we as Christian men in this nation have lost a fear of God. Think about it we
think of God as our father, or a friend but do we accually fear him??? Hopefully
im not getting off subject, but if its going to take God, WWII, or any other thing to put
the fear of God into me, so be it.
Maybe i can teach my children more than what i learned; that there is only two things in
this world they should fear, God and their father
Porkfry
Member
D posted 12-19-2000 02:26 PM l£E ^
Will,
I think that all of these are viable topics. These are things that I am seriously interested
in leanring about. Hell, I think every MAN of God should have a desire to learn about
these things. I would suggest writing the different topics down on a big piece of paper
and throw a dart. Which ever one you hit first do a topic on that one.
So how does one find out about the "Fight Club" sort of thing starting in January? News
letter? Radio show of some kind? Notes passed during home room?
Later
Porkfry
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Ail times are PT (US)
Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
POST REPLY
Hop to:
General
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
JAN
N
INTtRNtT A R C M I V I
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 5.html
2 captures
28 Jan 01 - 19 Nov 02
DEC
◄
2000
28
2001
►
2 (
^idrash A R s ^
~ /~~7 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
S& Midrash
hfc 1 General
I Pussified Nation (Page 5)
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author
Topic: Pussified Nation
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
D posted 12-19-2000 02:27 PM LsEH
hey WILL, hopefully in a few weeks i wont need topic #4
Praise jesus for marraige, sex, and the sexual freedom my bride and I have in Christ, to get
it on.
William Wallace □ pos ted 12 - 19-2000 02:33 pm LOl =■
II
Member Brilliant. Now we’re making progress.
I would agree that our therapy driven culture has turned God into a counselor dispensing
kind hearted advice to the soft hearted and soft minded rather than a king shouting orders
to his troops over whom He rules with sovereign authority of life and death. The Bible is
clear that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and that fools reject discipline and
wisdom (Proverbs 1:7).
God is indeed loving, longsuffering, kind and patient. But, he is also a consuming fire who is
coming again to judge the living and the dead, already flooded the earth, killed every
firstborn in Egypt, and promises in Revelation to have a wine press in which He throws His
enemies to crush them and have their blood as high as a horse flow for miles.
Throw in the fact that He had the strength to kill and raise Himself from death. Look at how
the God the Father killed God the Son (Isaiah 53:10) and ask yourself, should I not have
some fear of this God? Have I not become pussified and thereby made God in my own
image and likeness as the Pussified which would explain why I no longer fear him?
Here's a good old word we'll resurrect today.
Idolatry.
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12-19-2000 02:35 PM LO] O
A-Corinthian.
Congratulations.
"May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe,
a graceful dear-may her breasts satisfy you always..."
Proverbs 5:18-19a
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
D posted 12-19-2000 03:28 PM L23I
AMEN....
her stature is like that of the palm tree, and her breast are its fruit, I said i will climb that
tree and take hold of its fruit. Song of songs 7:7&8
Orual
D
Junior Member
posted 12-19-2000 03:28 PM
I have a topic suggestion:
How a manly man courts a womanly woman.
cell'me
Member
D posted 12-19-2000 04:23 PM LO] [3^
I'm curious Wallace -
Do you believe that you are now making progress in this thread because everyone is along
for your merry ride? Or, are you willing to concede that honest, faithful queries that run
contrary to your judicial understanding of the gospel can also promote progress?
The past several posts of this thread have driven the gospel to a place of judicial standing. A
place I - nor John's Gospel - thinks it belongs. A non-judicial view of the gospel turns the
vector arrow of faith completely around from what is being presented here.
In other words, the judicial gospel presents God as an angry, vengeful and wrathful God that
somehow needs to be appeased. Christ, sacrificed on our behalf, is that necessary
appeasement. Well, folks, that is nothing more than paganism. This is right along the lines
of pagans offering the pure, virgin sacrifice to the angry volcano-god by throwing her into
the mouth of the volcano, so that his anger will be appeased and there will be peace in the
valley. Are you kidding?
The non-judicial gospel is no less powerful and yet restores the proper order to God's
concern: to reconcile his creation. Yes, Jesus is the sacrifice, and yes he paid the price - but,
for us and our wretchedness, not God! Jesus was not trying to appease God by his death, he
was trying to show God's undying love for us. Jesus assumed a position of solidarity with us,
not over and against us - judging from a safe distance. The arrow or reason for Christ's
death points to us, not God. God did not kill his own son, we did! It was our rejection and
our (false) judgement of God which led to his death. Jesus himself said,
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-- only to take it up again. No one
takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and
authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (NIV)
We are the fellow murderers of Christ. Where is our sense of responsibility in that
realization, Wallace?
The question is this:
Is God a BLOODTHIRSTY, or a BLOODSHEDDING, God?
By your account he is bloodthirsty. By John's account he is bloodshedding. I choose to follow
the Gospel according to John, rather than according to you.
Prayerfully submitted.
[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-19-2000).]
[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-19-2000).]
KatieVonbora
Junior Member
D posted 12-19-2000 04:40 PM L£3 [21
I like this topic of how a manly man courts his wife. And I must say my husband is an
EXPERT at that so I'll add my two cents.
You love your wife despite and because of who she is. You perform acts of kindness not for
the sexual acts you think you will recieve in turn. My lover gives me flowers once a month
every month; even though we are dirt poor he scrapes together the cash to get me flowers
because he knows I love them.
Bryan
Administrator
zugbot
Junior Member
He wrote me a song after our wedding expressing the joy he felt when he saw me his bride
walk down the aisle the first time.
He won't allow me to nit-pick my appearance and insult his wife. He listens to my tirades
and whining but he won't allow me to push life out of perspective.
I am my beloveds and he is mine.
[This message has been edited by KatieVonbora (edited 12-19-2000).]
D posted 12-19-2000 08:32 PM LO] =113
Cell'me-
You sound bitter. Maybe it would help if you looked at the direction this thread has taken not
as WWII making the progress, but simply as progress being made? Because progress IS
being made- boys are being convicted of not owning up to their duties and responsibilities,
dialogue is taking place, people's views of God are being challenged, both boys and men are
rethinking their understanding of their role as Sons of God, etc. The list could go on.
My challenge to you and everyone else reading this: Stop with the useless chatter and begin
making a difference! Yes, perhaps you've disagreed with some of what has been said and/or
with the tone in which it was delivered. So what! Our society has a problem. The church has
a problem. We need to simply acknowledge this and move forward. All of this bb banter
sounds like avoidance of the issue at hand: Christian men (most, not all) have been for
many years dropping the ball; they've embraced pagan world-views (feminism, inalienable-
rightsism, self-esteemism, etc.) and made the church, Christ's bride, subject to these
crooked rules! WWII has simply said: Here's the problem. Let us say, Here I am, send me.
And cell'me, what is this 'the gospel is non-judicial' crap? The Gospel is judicial inasmuch as
God is judicial. Do not put God in a box. He is the JUDGE, He is vengeful, He is holy, He is
righteous, He is absolutely free. He is not the pansy-ass you imply. Yes, He's
bloodshedding; but it's not always His own. He's killed thousands of babies for His own
glory! This doesn't mean He is "bloodthirsty", it means He is free to do what He'll do with
His creation. His "concern" is not as you say; to reconcile His creation. His "concern" is with
being glorified. (Not narcissistically, but because there is no other way. He will be glorified;
He is God!) Fortunately for us, He chose to glorify Himself through the sending of His Son to
redeem us by death in our stead! You are correct that Jesus was not trying to appease God
by going to the cross, but you are incorrect that He went to the cross "for us and our
wretchedness, not God!" He went to the cross to glorify His Father, not to save us. We are
simply the beneficiaries of this glorification! You and others might say this is just semantics-
it's not. It's a fundamental understanding of God. He is justified in doing whatever He wants
to do- we have NO rights. Yes, He loves us tremendously, but not because we've earned it
or deserve it. We place too much importance on ourselves if we believe God became a man
and died on the cross just for us! God created this world, pursues us, sends us a savior,
sanctifies us, etc. -that He might be glorified, not (solely) because He loves us. He loves us
as a MEANS of being glorified.
Praise be to GOD!
If anyone disagrees with me, please start a new Midrash post. Let's stop with the idle chit-
chat in this thread and start fulfilling our God-given duties!
This is my last post here as I believe enough has been said. Let's move.
VIVA LA REFORMA NEUVO!
SOLA DE-PUSSIFICATIONA!
Humbly,
-Bryan
D posted 12-19-2000 08:46 PM LO]
Bravo Bryan Dutt! Well put.
-- bryan zug
cell'me □ posted 12-19-2000 09:15 PM L£E
Member
Bryan,
Thanks for your thots. Before I respond in another thread (per your request) to your "judicial
gospel" let me note this.
I am intrigued by the inconsistency applied to some posts as opposed to those, for instance,
of Wallace. How is it that some, including my own impassioned writings, are dismissed as
"bitter" or "one-upmanship" or "missing the point" and yet they contain none of the
inflammatory rhetoric or hurling of insults or misuse of Scripture that Will's contain?
I do not dispute that progress has been made on this thread. But, at what expense? Dissent
is met with hostility and any disagreement is viewed as proof positive for the necessity of
this topic. It seems a little provincial to me. I cannot state this any more clearly - I agree in
principle with Wallace's message. So why is it not "proper" to engage the messenger in
some sort of dialogue? Again, why the close-minded, arrogant stance on this issue?
So, allow me to get off of everyone's back - apparently the very hard-nosed accountability
that Will seeks to impose on the new order is not readily accepted here. I apologize for
attempting to respond in kind to Mr. Wallace's authority. It seems as though he truly is king
here and that makes no sense to me.
Prayerfully.
skewter
Junior Member
D posted 12-19-2000 10:13 PM L£E [jl
cell:
blah, blah, blah, shut up! your argument is clear, but it's also irrelevant at this point.
the best way to continue to present your views is by conducting yourself in the way you've
described, not by trying for the last word.
let's move on. let's enact these principles we've discussed, and let's move on.
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 12-19-2000 11:57 PM HIE =H
Cell Me -
Thank you for the presentation on todays topic of IDOLOTRY. I think that your god is very
cute and his gospel sure made me feel all fuzzy inside !l S' Do they have parks for gods like
yours where you can take them off their leashes and let them play? I wonder if you ever
checked the Scripture that has been mentioned in previous posts about our God. Like for
instance Revelation 14:14-20? You know when He takes people and puts them in His big
wrath winepress. Then He gets in it tramples them so that so much blood flows out that it
rises as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 180 miles. What do you think our God
would say to those people before He hops in His winepress of His wrath? "You know I hate
the sin but not the sinner" or "This is gonna hurt me more than its gonna hurt you".
I really loved this quote here, "the judicial gospel presents God as an angry, vengeful and
wrathful God that somehow needs to be appeased. Christ, sacrificed. ..Well, folks, that is
nothing more than paganism."
I agree that we should continue the progress we've been making in getting back to the
subject but I just thought Cellmes god that he constructed with his mind went right along
with the topic of idolatry.
To the subject of a manly man courting a women - I recently have been listening to a tape
series by Douglas Wilson of Canon Press on this subject. He made the point of the pattern
that Scripture gives is this - Men marry, women are given in marriage. So what do we do in
a pussified nation like ours where fathers don't believe they have the God given authority
and responsibility to GIVE their daughters away, when the Bible says they do. In modern
marriage cermonies when the fathers stand up and answer the question about "who gives
this women" its just like some cute little concession that nobody takes serious. If a father
objected to the marriage he wouldn't even get invited to the wedding to have his little 15
minutes of fame in the cermony. This is nothing less than godlessness. I believe with out a
shadow of a doubt that the way God calls a man to approach a woman to court her is
THROUGH HER FATHER. Doug Wilson gives many wise and biblical reasons for this.
This will be the way I court the woman I marry and you can be damn sure this is the way my
daughter will be courted.
Lets keep moving with the progress even if we do have wade through the rivers of tears that
are shed by the boys who cry when they don't get spoken to in the standards of mannerism
establish by the revolution in pop psychology.
SoliDeoGloria-
Calvin
The tape series is called, "Biblical Courtship" and you can find it along with a ton of other
great teaching at Canonpress.org
[This message has been edited by ReformUrAss (edited 12-22-2000).]
adummy
Member
D posted 12-20-2000 12:09 AM LEE
being a dummy is no good. False humility is nothing more than pride. Hey porkfry, pass me
the note in homeroom when your through, I want to sign up.
~Repenting shmuck
Viv
Junior Member
D posted 12-20-2000 12:13 AM LEU
The manly men are rallying!
Reminds me of the Rocky montage....
pinky
Junior Member
D posted 12-20-2000 12:23 AM LEE
getting closer! Dah nuh nuh! Dah nuh nuh! (rocky theme, hard to sing on posts). If the
reality of the secret society is a tangible one, give me the pen and paper. Nothing wrong
with real substantial men. Like the grass in heaven via The Great Divorce. Wouldn't mind
some growing pains for the sake of God's glory.
~pinky
Porkfry
Member
D posted 12-20-2000 09:30 AM SSI
Dummy: Yeah I will pass you the note. Did you study for that test on Postmodernism Vs. the
Socioeconomic effects of transcendentalism on a communist society? Can I just say that I
hate the tests in Homeroom. Anywho, I watched the Matrix last night and forgot to study. I
might have to copy off of your test...
On a completely non school related note:
I was driving home with my wife last night and I asked her if she thought I was a Pussified
husband. She told me that I was not Pussified and that actually I was just the opposite.
Mind you I was kinda shocked because I thought I was messing up ail over the place. She
told me that in the beginning of our relationship I was a lot weaker. She told me that God
has been working on my life and that she Respects me because I am strong. She also went
into the point that it didn't mean that I was perfect. I still had stuff to work on but the point
was that I had a desire to grow not only in Christ but also as a Husband and as a MAN. I
was pretty stoked with that. It's always good to hear that your wife doesn't think you are a
weak, sniveling little Pussified shell of a man.
xrizxomiz
Member
We continued to discuss this and it really started to dawn on me that this is a very important
topic. Mainly for the fact that being Pussified really effects a whole lot of areas. Especially
the view your wife will have on you. The last thing I want is for my weakness to make my
wife not respect me. Not in a prideful sense but as her husband.
So with that being said I seriously feel that all the Pussified men across the nation/world
need a real kick in the teeth. Just the along the same lines when a person is steeped in
gross sin. They need to get that sin out of their life and repent and a outward expression of
repentance is change. We have been molded to believe that men need to embrace their
inner child and have a good cry. I am not saying crying is bad. Crying out of remorse of a
lost loved one is ok. Don't get me wrong. Men need to stand up. And fill the shoes that God
has given them to fill.
"Real men don't have an inner child. They have an inner Steak."
Porkfry
D posted 12-20-2000 11:14 AM U31 □
To all the man-ginas who have contributed to this bb. Have any of you ever been mistaken
for being a man? Is your "bro" keepin' your teets from draggin' on the floor? Do you tighten
your girdle to try and keep your wee-wees from loosin' all blood supply?
cell'me: In Rom 1:18, God's wrath is likened to an orgy (lit. orge in the greek), whereby God
is foaming at the mouth in anticipation to fully dispence His justice and anger upon
rebelious mankind. This is the way some commentators describe God's wrath. Although He
"endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Rom 9:22), He
nonethless is waiting to dispense His just judgement upon the wicked.
For the elect, Christ was the One on whom God dispensed His judgement. St. John himself
uses the term propitiaion/satisfaction (lit. hilasmos in the greek; 1 Jn 2:2, 4:10, cf. Rom
3:25). This one word has been used by many a great theologians to exegetically justify the
doctrine of substitutionary atonement. Even while we were "dead in our trespasses and
sins" (Eph 2:1), "were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Eph 2:3), and "even
when we were dead in our transgressions" (Eph 2:5a), "[God] made us alive together with
Christ" (Eph 2:5b).
The point here is that God was extremley pissed off at us cuz of our sin, and He made Him
who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf (2 Cor 5:21), (lit. huper/anti in the greek). Christ
took the guilt we incurred cuz of our sin upon Himself (expiation) and thereby satisfied
(propitiation) God's wrath. His righteousness was then imputed to our account
(justification).
The pagans have stories of dying and rising gods, wrathful deities needing appeasment, and
other similiar redemptive stories only cuz this was promised long ago to Eve and later to
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The good news of the coming redeemer of mankind is woven
into the very tapestry of the history of mankind, and has been preserved from generation to
generation even amongst the pagans.
All non-substitutionary views of the atonement have been tried and found wanting over the
last two-thousand years of church history (it's too much work tryin' to keep 'em clean and
they just bleed too much Bad Theology-->Pussification! ! !
BTW, William Wallace wasn't disembowled or even neutered at the end of his life. No, the
man's name was changed to Sweet Willy while he was in prison. The scene at the end of the
movie was just Sweet Willy receivin' his final penile enema. The man was really fightin' for
the freedom and rights of the Scottish Rainbow Brigade (Hollywood is the king of historical
revision). Williiam Wallace was no manly man.
Tyler Durden turned out to be a neurophysiological misfiring in the Sylvian Fissure of Jack's
brain. Tyler tried to be the successor to Nietzsche, but kind of forgot that Hitler already tried
the "Ubermensch Program" and failed. He also had a tough time reminding "himsleves" that
nihilism means Fight Club is as pointless and meaningless as everything else.
Besides, a manly man would be repulsed at the thought of another guy occupying the same
body as him. All in all, Tyler was just another puss.
Now a real man was the good and honorable "Jewels" (aka, Sammuel L. Jackson in Pulp
Fiction). Even the man's name is a token of gratitude to manhood everywhere.
In the film he refers to the female genitalia
as the "holy of holies" (much love for my sistas). The man abides by a biblical dietary plan
as he "does not dig on swine". Most of all, when he gets his wallet stolen, and like a good
man he has to apply some pressure to try and get it back, and the would-be criminals are
forced to ask him which wallet is his, he replies with coolness, "It's the one that says Bad
Motha Fucka on it!". Now if Jesus- who is at the right hand of the Father "far above all rule
and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in the one to come" (Eph 1:21)- if Fie ever loses His wallet, we ail know it's the one
that says BADDEST MOTHA FUCKA on it!!!
Now that's a Manly Man fo ya,
ICHTHUS
Porkfry □ posted 12-20-2000 05:11 pm La!H
Member
What can you guys tell me about the "Promise Keepers"?
I recall back when I was in high school (or there abouts) they came to Seattle and had some
big crying prayer meeting or something at the King dome I think. I recall there being a
bunch of feminist/anti-promise keeper types railing the people going in. Plus there were a
bunch of the Promise keeper's wives who took the "this is what a Godly man is supposed to
be" stance and they stood outside the king dome and were passing out bibles or Juice or
something, they were also being attacked (not physically) by the feminist/anti-promise
keeper types.
So gimme some back ground. What theological side of the coin do the fail? What church
most stands behind them? Or rather what churches if that applies? Are they coming to town
soon? Or did they die off?
From what I can tell the "movement" would be in strict opposition (from what I know) to the
Promise keepers. Is that the case? Or am I mistaken?
OK L8R! ! !
Porkfry
0
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
D posted 12-20-2000 06:25 PM LsL2
I'm getting the sense that a lot of people are thinking that this topic has been adequately
discussed with nothing more to say on this thread. Although it is absolutely imperitive that
one acts on what what says (or posts), I believe this chat has only begun to scratch the
surface and I hope to see it continue on in hopes that it makes if only one person think.
Many of the posts have emphasized the need for submission to and greater understanding of
God as the means of becoming more of a man. And that's good. God is good. Slight problem
here though.
Who's God?
It's the human tendency to view the Almighty, God the Father in much the same way we've
seen and experienced our earthly fathers. Scripture says that God is love, but if one has
grown up in a home where the father is abusive, absent, or remote, this will color one's
view of the Father in such a way as to make it very difficult to see Him as He is.
Through Christ Jesus we can come to the Father, be known by Him and get to know Him;
zugbot
Junior Member
but that is a journey of many, many steps. To strive to emulate our Father as we once
sought to copy our fathers as little boys is what we're looking for in becoming men, but
when one is left without an earthly example either in childhood or the church community, its
like to trying to describe the shape of the color yellow.
Enter the church. What can we do in our communities to help fill this void of ignorance and
sin so that we can see the Father? Do we have the balls and knowlege to call the men out of
boyhood into manhood, both spiritually and physically? I'm not talking about listing in some
sermon or bible study, "a man is this: blah blah blah, a man does that: blah blah blah" but
drawing the line in the dirt for them to irrevocably to cross over into manhood as every
other culture in history has done for it's males. There isn't supposed to be any options when
it's time to be called out. I believe this is a pertinent need (1 Cor 13:11-12) and I wish to
God I knew what I could do about it.
D posted 12-20-2000 06:59 PM L£3]
On Promise Keepers. Flave had a lot of contact with them. Two friends were deeply involved
in PK leadership (one on the board since its early inception). I attended the 2nd, 3rd, and
5th rallies in Colorado where it was founded. Was heavily involved for 7 years in a church
that idolized promise keepers. With that, here's my experience...
It was founded around 92/93 in response to manifestations of the pussified male phenom.
Basically the coach of the Colorado Buffalos college football team wanted to call men to take
seriously their roles as men, husbands, and fathers. They started doing stadium gatherings
over a weekend that would then be supported by the formation of men's accountability
groups in the local churches.
The idea seemed necessary and revolutionary because of the sad state of affairs re. the
pussifed male. Gatherings generated lots of flack from feminist and gay rights groups. There
was a lot of weeping and repenting. I saw (and participated in) a lot of emotional scenes.
Flere's the heart of where I think things went awry.
Calling men to obedience and repentance is only biblical when the purpose, means, and ends
of these acts are giving God glory. If obedience and repentance are seen as the key to
getting good families, happy lives (and eventually SUV's), then we've just bought into the
idea that God exists to make us happy.
God has, ever so subtly, become Prozac.
What starts out as something with good elements (like focus on the family) becomes an idol.
Complicating the situation further is a complete ignorance of the rights/happiness mentality
that governs this present age.
The end result is that this supposed journey deeper into Biblical manhood instead becomes
an exercise in pop psychology self-discovery with a masculine sheen on it.
Unfortunately I never realized these things until it was too late. I was married to a woman
who believed that God existed to make her "happy". When she found herself in a place
where she was not "happy", she eventually came to the conclusion that God had told her to
divorce me and go start a new life.
This was hard enough to deal with. I tried to truthfully and lovingly appeal to her many
times. If I made any errors in trying to discipline my household in the scriptural difference
between "happiness" and joy, it was in not coming down more firmly and just saying -
"Look, this is wrong. The Bible says it's wrong. God say's it's wrong. And I say it's wrong."
I was afraid that if I was too vocal and determined about it, I would just come off as being a
hard ass.
What unexpectedly kicked me in the nuts was the reaction of the leadership of my "Promise
Keepers" church. When I asked my pastor to meet with my wife and I so that I could make
one last lovingly truthful Matthew 18 appeal to her, he asked me why I felt the need to do
that.
He wanted to know what "issues" I had in my life that made me feel like I needed to take
such an authoritarian action. Being completely devastated at the moment, I didn't have the
presence of mind to say - "Because that's what the Bible says and so I thought I should do
that."
With him and many like minded "elders" in my church, I became framed as a controlling
man who had authority issues solely for trying to listen to the Bible and do what it says. Not
only did I lose my wife, I lost many friends and my church in the process.
All that to say that though this is just one experience, I think it points out the clear
differences between Promise Keepers and the deep de-pussification we are talking about on
this list. In many ways, it is a clear reminder of what we are up against, and how costly this
quest can be.
zugbot
Porkfry
Member
D posted 12-21-2000 10:00 AM SJE3
Thanks Zug.
Wow man that’s crazy. Sorry about the stuff that happened to you. I heard about the focus
on the family people essentially turning the family into an idol. I have always been a little
tweaked about the PK guys. I don’t know something just dosn’t sit quite right.
I’m curious if at the end of the "movement” or at least once it’s been around for a while if
being a "man" would become an idol...
Strong leadership, the holy spirit and sound doctirne would be the only way to make sure
that didn't happen.
L8R
Porkfry
0
zugbot
Junior Member
D posted 12-21-2000 10:53 AM L£1
Porkfry
One of the overarching themes of "Fight Club" is that human movements with noble goals
overwhelmingly end up becoming idols. So, yeah, I think there is a danger, but it seems to
be one that we are being called to wade through.
zugbot
Porkfry
Member
D posted 12-21-2000 11:02 AM L£H
I totally agree Zugmiester!
I think that we as humans already run the risk of pretty much turning everything into an
idol.
So Lots of prayer once this thing gets off the ground that it will stay God centered.
L8R
Porkfry
D posted 12-21-2000 11:28 PM L£!?l
hopeful
Member
thevioletburning
Junior Member
A_Corinthian
Junior Member
Porkfry
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
Reading this thread is a blessing.
Damm i miss all my Whitehorse brothers!
Press on brothers.
©
[This message has been edited by hopeful (edited 12-21-2000).]
D posted 12-22-2000 06:32 AM L£H □
i want in.
revolution.
i am courting a woman who i will probably marry and doing my best to do it in a Godly way,
but i need my ass kicked and I want my ass kicked.
i'm bending over waiting
D posted 12-22-2000 12:09 PM LO]
There is no point in kicking your ass if you know you need it kicked.... ass kicking is for
those who feel they dont need one. Want to change??? Then change! start reading the word
more (if you are not), act responcible (if you are not), confess your sin to God, and your girl
(unless it's not that close of a relationship, but then, you are not ready for marriage), Pray
for her that God will bless her and watch over her.
Pray with her be prepared to be emotionally crucified, and learn how to
resurrect then see if your man enough to be a husband, a father, Christ to your
bride the revolution has already started my friend...
D posted 12-22-2000 12:39 PM L£3
So then is the "movement" just a wake up call for the people who post here? Or is there
actually going to be a real movement? The reason I question is because if it's the latter then
it's not really a movement but more along the lines of a motivating thread. I'm pushing for
the actual Movement part because then there will be a greater chance for people who don't
post here to get De-pussified.
As you can tell I'm a slow learner and I don't pick up on things very quickly.
L8R
Porkfry
0
[This message has been edited by Porkfry (edited 12-22-2000).]
D posted 12-23-2000 09:24 PM L$3] O
Yes, the movement begins in January in Seattle, headquarters for the worldwide expansion.
If you would like to attend the first congress and meet the Founding Fathers, you are
welcome to try. You must be a man and you must apply by sending a list of reasons we
should accept you with your bio (including your church, name, age, contact information,
marital status etc.) to ManlyMen@hotmail.com. If we do not get back to you do not cry, you
have simply been rejected and forgotten. If you should hear about this meeting and show
up and we don't like you, you will be forced to leave. We are not an open organization and
with such a great deal to accomplish we simply have no intention of putting up with any
crap.
Porkfry
Member
D posted 12-26-2000 08:33 AM
l m
Excellent
L8R
Porkfry
0
Wax
Junior Member
D posted 12-26-2000 06:08 PM
[£3
3?
I am curious. If one writes the E-mail to the provided e-mail address to apply, and they are
rejected will they be able to reapply? Or if you are denied once, you are denied forever?
I was also curious if the movement gets big and is to "Promise Keepers" proportions will you
still require possible members to apply? Or once it's to that size people will just be
admitted?
Will you be having a website in the future for the movement?
[This message has been edited by Wax (edited 12-26-2000).]
ReformUrAsS □ posted 12-26-2000 07:54 pm LOl □ ^
Member
I can't wait to get in touch with my inner-Old-Testament-Prophet
RagBrat 0 posted 12-28-2000 10:37 am LO ^[3
Junior Member
I know that WWII dosn't really want women to post here and WWII forgive me because I am
a woman but I felt that I should say something.
I grew up with very little manly influence in my life and the women in my family, including
me, have always taken the roles that is really a man's job. I have a hard head and heart
when it comes to a man's authority, especially in my own life.
Reading WWII's posts made me very angry and I can honestly say that I had more then a
few bad words pop into my head while reading.
But in these last couple of weeks God has really "spanked" me over this issue. Since reading
the posts here I have been looking at men in a different way and the truthfullness of WWII's
writings have really hit home. It is a very sad state that our country is in and I am glad that
there are some Godly men who are willing to do something about it!
The thing that has really made me realise the need for reformation is my job. My head boss
is a very strong feminist woman, the person that cowers under her is a "pussified" man
claiming to be a "Christian", (nice guy, no backbone.)
There are 3 other bosses under him that are all gay and it makes me so sad to watch these
people and how they interact daily.
But the kicker is a guy at work who is very good looking and hits on me constantly. The
problem with him doing this is that he is married and his wife is pregnent. He made a pass
at me yesterday and all I could think about what you guys have been writing about and I
was so angry I told this guy that he should not be hitting on me and that comments like
that should be saved for his wife, he just laughed at me! He thought I was joking!
When I went on break I told a coworker about the incident he said welcome to the reality of
every maried man in america.
God has really shown me the truth through these incidents.
WWII I apologise for being angry and stubborn twards your words and God's conviction. I
pray that there will be a reformation in this community and through the world because we
are in desperate need of it.
I also pray that God will mold me into the woman that He wants me to be so that I can,
someday, be the wife and perform the roll that He intended for me.
Thank you for speaking the truth! I hope that more men will see the truth in your words.
man
Junior Member
William Wallace
II
Member
[This message has been edited by RagBrat (edited 12-28-2000).]
D posted 12-28-2000 09:03 PM LJ31
Thanks for sending me this string. What do I think?
Bryan's posts were a highlight.
And Squatting Bear's suggestion of a Vision Quest... (How can we follow that through
properly?)
But WW2 was acting the goose: at best a virtual man trying to swing on the other end of the
teeter-totter to keep the argument fueled. Sadly too many took him seriously. At worst a
scarey half-man. I agreed with some of what he said about men showing some backbone &
discipline...
...But I disagreed with his proposed method of getting there ("suck it up, pray, and just do
it" was Promise Keeper's idea and it failed because it doesn't work - Romans 7. Instead we
need the Spirit's help, to expose the inner LIES that drive our compulsions, and I need my
brothers to play a key role in that tough, reflective, submitted-to-God process. Not a group
of mere bullies & masochists like the "revolution" will be.)
...And I disagreed with his restriction of both men & women to culturally prescribed gender
roles. (On this subject he's not as culturally self-aware as he thinks he is.)
- If it's good enough for both God & Jesus to assume some culturally feminine qualities, it's
good enough for me to add some of those Christlike qualities.
- And if women are supposed to become Christlike too, then why shouldn't women show
backbone & leadership?
- I think Christ showed us the paradox of a FULLY human being - something we should all
aspire to, all with our own uniquely redeemed characteristics yet changing from glory to
glory, (eg. You can't actually BE gentle unless you are strong.)
...WW2's choice of scripture was pretty one-eyed, as was his interpretation of the bits he
chose. There's a long-running argument about those bits, which should be respected.
...Further his open hostility showed some missiological incompetence. (By contrast, consider
how Nathan, Jesus, Peter, Paul, all incarnate their message so that it communicates best.)
...WW2 comes over as adolescent: legalistic and simplistic. A trash talker more than a
straight talker. But on page 4 he seems to settle down - I think his identity got sprung, so
he had to pull his finger out and be a bit more reasonable. Till then he was just enjoying his
alter ego. If I'm wrong and it's more than that, then his elders need challenge him about a
growing meglamania. And his groupies need to be challeged about their own love of power
& domination.
BTW, WW2, if you read this, just ask yourself this: How can you engender compassion,
grace & self-sacrifice in others, by modelling violence, domination & self-indulgence? In
methodology, what is the difference between your proposed "revolution" and a gang?
The method IS the message. Get it?
Man
D posted 12-29-2000 12:36 AM L£2I -O
I love it when a guy says that other guys should do their job if they claim Christ and
someone says that's legalism (ever really met a legalist, they are basically an endangered
species like spotted owls and men who know more verses than beer jingles).
I love it when some guys say there are no gender roles and pretend like that makes him like
Jesus (ever notice how everyone from Charles Manson on down thinks they are just like
Jesus?).
I love it when guys say missiology (which means clearly communicating the gospel to a
people) and instead means syncretism whereby we stop sounding like fools for Christ and
setting Him up as a stumbling block so that the gospel can be buried under cultural
assumptions to ensure we never get crucified like Christ or exiled like the prophets but
instead make it on Oprah to talk about our vague loving god/goddess and convert people to
hell.
I love it when some guys say that strong banter and headship is abusive, mean, and violent
like a gang (yeah our Christian drive-by's and rapes have gotten a bit out of hand due to all
the crack we smoke together while we clean our stolen guns).
And I love it that none of these "guys" will be with us because they already have a club
called the world where they can get together and watch Will and Grace without losing their
last meal.
Lastly, Marshall McLuhan was a genius Canadian researcher and pioneer on communication
theory. His famous line was that "the medium is the message". Indeed, I know my
message, and have chosen my mediums.
On we move.
Out you go.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-29-2000).]
James
Junior Member
D posted 12-29-2000 01:06 PM Ls£?l ^
"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done
in the humility that comes from wisdom. . . .wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all
pure; then peace loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and
sincere."
4: 13&17
Wax
Junior Member
D posted 12-29-2000 10:27 PM L£21
[Quotes by man have an elipse before them]
...And if women are supposed to become Christlike too, then why shouldn't women show
backbone & leadership?
Hmmm....Haven't read much of Timothy and Titus lately have you?
...WW2's choice of scripture was pretty one-eyed, as was his interpretation of the bits he
chose. "There's a long-running argument about those bits, which should be respected."
[Talking about the part in quotes] Does that ean that you either don't talk about them or
state that both sides have an equally correct view, and that both sides just need to keep
their sides to the people who care to listen?
...WW2 comes over as adolescent: legalistic and simplistic.
You want legalistic? I'll give you legalistic! I am getting so sick and tired of the word
legalistic being thrown around when people feel that the words that are being spoken to
them are too harsh. Ya know I bet that all the Jews thought that the OT prophets were
really legalistic. I am not in any way putting WWII in line with any of the prophets but I am
saying that when you get (forgive my laguage)your ass handed to you about sin in your life
the first inclination is to cry foul on the person who is talking. "OH he who is without sin cast
the first stone" Or "HEY PAL! Pull the plank out of your EYE FIRST!". If you persist (any of
you for that matter) in nit picking WWII's posts for little bits where a verse here or there
dosn't reflect Christ in what he says you are missing the point. HE IS A SINNER! Do you
really expect anyone to be able to convey a concept with the clarity and correctness of
Christ? NO? Then quit acting like he is supposed to!
...A trash talker more than a straight talker.
Do people have to snap infront of your face to get you to pay attention when they are talking
to you?
...And his groupies need to be challeged about their own love of power & domination.
I find interesting how trying to put a focus on where God want's you to be is being construed
as love of power and domination. We are called to fill the shoes God has set up for us.
[This message has been edited by Wax (edited 12-29-2000).]
man
Junior Member
D posted 12-30-2000 06:48 PM L£?l
WW2 Methinks you protesteth too much...
"I love it when a guy says that other guys should do their job if they claim Christ and
someone says that's legalism..."
Don't mis-read me. Actually I agree that men should do their job. Their whole job.
I just agree with Paul, that "Law" is not enough. What more do YOU offer?
man
Junior Member
D posted 12-30-2000 06:49 PM L£H
"I love it when some guys say there are no gender roles and pretend like that makes him
like Jesus..."
A gross simplification of what I said. Go back and re-read. I didn't say there are no gender
roles. I'm just against those roles that are defined by mere culture, not God's word. (eg.
men are like buffaloes, women are like butterflies. A stereo-type like that is just patriarchal
culture. Not Jesus.)
Oh, and I "love it" when some half-guy says that a one-sided stereo-type makes him like
Jesus. I said the truth is in the paradoxes, Billy, both sides of the paradoxes.
"(ever notice how everyone from Charles Manson on down thinks they are just
like Jesus?)."
That cuts both ways, Billy.
man
Junior Member
D posted 12-30-2000 06:51 PM L£?l
"I love it when guys say missiology (which means clearly communicating the gospel to a
people) and instead means syncretism whereby we stop sounding like fools for Christ and
setting Him up as a stumbling block so that the gospel can be buried under cultural
assumptions to ensure we never get crucified like Christ or exiled like the prophets but
instead make it on Oprah to talk about our vague loving god/goddess and convert people
to hell."
I do not mean synchretism. I mean communicating. Like Nathan (2 Sam 12).
But I see you synchretising for red-necks.
"I love it when some guys say that strong banter and headship is abusive, mean, and
violent like a gang (yeah our Christian drive-by's and rapes have gotten a bit out of hand
due to all the crack we smoke together while we clean our stolen guns)."
Good point. Your method aint shooting. I'll concede that.
"And I love it that none of these "guys" will be with us because they already have a club
called the world where they can get together and watch Will and Grace without losing
their last meal."
The world doesnt like a FULL man. The pussified boys hate us, because we champion
strength, discipline, self-control, and spiritual warfare. And the rednecks hate us because
we champion gentleness, compassion, and love. There's no place for us in the world... which
I guess includes your club.
man D posted 12-30-2000 06:54 PM LO ^
Junior Member
"Lastly, Marshall McLuhan was a genius Canadian researcher and pioneer on
communication theory. His famous line was that "the medium is the message". Indeed, I
know my message, and have chosen my mediums."
Conceded. So???
"On we move.
Out you go."
The meglamania rides on, huh? Stop and read. Carefully this time.
Man
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
All times are PT (US)
Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
POST REPLY
Hop to:
General
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
JAN
N
INTtRNtT A R C M I V I
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 6.html
2 captures
28 Jan 01 - 19 Nov 02
DEC
◄
2000
28
2001
►
2 (
^idrash A R s ^
UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
S& Midrash
hfc 1 General
I Pussified Nation (Page 6)
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author
Topic: Pussified Nation
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 12 - 30-2000 08:20 PM L£3 □
This string is simply a work in law. Now that it is beginning to evoke a bit of response we will
be moving forward with clarifying further the general roles of men and women as defined
principally in Scripture, and practically in our present culture (hence the post for single men
on how to get a wife). Our gatherings will deal in greater specificity with accountability and
male relationships centered in Scripture, governed by grace, and empowered by the Spirit
as one of the multiple means by which we grow up in Christ. This posting site is good for
kicking up some interest and laying out some information but simply cannot do the work
that a local church was intended to and is therefore limited.
Lastly, in each time and place we must speak in a way that can best penetrate the noise of
the present age. While Nathan has been exalted as the example, I would also remind you
that most Old Testament prophets, all but one disciple, and the Lord Jesus Christ all died at
the hands of religious people. While I would not seek such martyrdom I would suggest that
whispering gently in therapeutic tones has been well tried and proven a failure as Promise
Keepers and the like have demonstrated. Pelagian theology and psychology are very poor
substitutes for law and gospel.
later.
P.S. irony and sarcasm are our friends. Laugh a little and scale down kids. If you don't get
the humor, I promise you it's not because it isn't funny, but because you are way too
serious. For therapy you may want to read a couple bits in Ezekiel about cooking a meal and
scan the law for how to take a dump in a hole.
man
Junior Member
D posted 12 - 30-2000 08:46 PM L£3
Jesus defies culture by aligning women, with "Men's business."
For Jesus it was preferable that Mary, Martha, & other women to be in on the theological
sessions at his feet. (Definitely only men's business.)
Jesus aligned himself with "women's work."
Jesus was into "child-minding", and clothes mending. And imaged himself as a mother hen
gathering in her chicks. And he painted an image of God as a cleaning woman.
But in the OT God already painted himself as a mother with child at breast (Isa 66), and a
bride (Isa49). But also a raging mother bear.
All these feminine images the complete the paradox of who God is. Who Christ is. They
compliment the masculine images. The truth is in the paradoxes!
The "gender roles" start to get blurry dont they.
Or do they?
Could we be honest enough for one second to admit that maybe it's just that Jesus blurs
OUR CULTURAL strereo-types. (be they redneck or pussified.)
"Perhaps" Jesus knew what God intended when he made humans male and female.
Jesus knew the real distinctions, not the cultural ones.
Jesus knows the way men & women are supposed to interact and co-operate in a
(redeemed) partnership.
(1) So what distinctions might those be? *
CAUTIOUSLY I suggest that the sexual act is a model.
- Men as penetrators, vs women as enfolders.
- Communication as: Accuracy vs Connection
- "Basic attitude to life" (Crabb) as: Entering vs Embracing
- "Core values..." (Giliigan): Independent vs Interdependent
Solve vs Nurture
Fix vs Be there
Control vs Bonding
Achievement vs Attachment
- CAUTIOUSLY, it can be observed that men "Relate to the world thru..." (Nowra):
Objects vs People
Action vs Feeling.
(2) But here's the kicker: are we in partnership to learn from each other?
(rather than merely retreating to our own roles, as if marking out our domain, "mine" and
"Yours". And getting embroiled in power disputes.)
Stereotyping restricts us from further growth. "I can only be strong. Can't be gentle, that's
for women." Aren't we to learn from each other in true partnership, and grow into fuller
human beings?
Is becoming Christlike for both men and women?
Then we men are to adopt the full measure of his manhood, not just those traits we've
chosen to nominate as "masculine."
And women are to adopt the full measure of his humanity, not just those traits we've chosen
to nominate as "feminine."
On what basis can we say to a woman, "oh no you can't be Christlike in that area."?
Attaining to the full measure of Christ is for all, whether male or female.
(Many parts of the world hate me for saying this - largely because it threatens their
'domain'.)
(3) So what do we do with passages like Eph 5?
"A man should love the wife. A wife should respect the husband."
Should not a woman also love, and a man also respect? Of course.
So why does Paul need to specifiy?
Because obviously the men weren't loving. And the women weren't respecting as they
should. They'd obviously let those specific parts of the paradox lapse.
But I also think Paul's saying, when we stuff up our gender relationships, we better get back
to the Creation, and start relearning from the beginning. Men initiate; Women embrace;
Affirm each others' strengths, show mercy for each other's weaknesses, and then help each
other grow! (A Great definition of GRACE.)
(4) Help each other grow? Flow?
Not JUST by holding up the mirror, & showing where I lack. Not just by telling me what I
want to do.
But FURTFIER, by Christ's Spirit uncovering the personal lies that drive my sinful
compulsions, and then bringing a personal experience of the the truth that I need, to free
me from the power of that lie. THAT'S what really helps. His heart surgery on me. That's
where a group of men of God really helps. They bring me to God's knife.
WW2, I know you're freaking out, but I've already heard what you'd say about points 1-3.
It's tired. Go on if you want, after the repitition, Will you please address point 4? Something
you've not yet addressed.
Man
man
Junior Member
D posted 12-30-2000 08:48 PM L£2]
Wax,
"There's a long-running argument about those bits, which should be
respected."
[Talking about the part in quotes] Does that ean that you either don't talk about them or
state that both sides have an equally correct view, and that both sides just need to
keep their sides to the people who care to listen?
No I choose not to talk about them.
Besides you can go look them up at a library for yourself. The material will do a far better
job than I of presenting their own case.
That argument isn't the core of my argument.
Show that you understand what I AM saying first.
Man
man D posted 12-30-2000 08:57 PM L£3] ^
Junior Member
Apologies WW2
Just read your last post. "This string is a work in law." "Cant do what the church should
do..."
You did address my point 4 there, so acknowledged and well-done.
And your last post does put your case in a more helpful context. As long as we recognise the
parameters, we're nearly agreeing!!! On that at least.
I've said enough.
Man
William Wallace □ posted 12-31-2000 oi:ii pm LOI □
II
Member On the issue of respecting the varied theological positions surrounding the family I would
disagree. You cannot find any theological issue on which there is not varied and strong
disagreement. However, such variance should not prevent us from coming to conclusions,
teaching them to others, and living them out in practice. The abundance of sloppy thinking
and poor theology does in no way validate the confusion among believers on matters that
are tremendously practical.
Should my pastor be a man or woman? Should my wife and children submit to me as the
head of my home? Should I provide financially for my family? Are my wife and I sexually
obligated to serve one another without considering our body as our own posession? Should
my wife have her ministry directed homeward to our children or can we put them in daycare
for someone else to parent? Should I be gay or straight? Should I stay married or can I get
a divorce? If divorced can I get remarried? And the list continues ad nauseum.
But, I will stand before God and give an account for what I believed and how I embodied it. I
cannot stand before God and point at the library of conflicting opinions and say that I
respected them all and thereby failed to have any convictions. I am certain that God is not
nearly impressed with the books on the shelf as we are. I indeed tend to see things very
simply. That is because I believe that ours is a simple yet profound God and to walk as His
child takes a Bible, the Holy Spirit, a church, lots of grace and a yielded heart to be lead and
the courage to lead others.
God's folly is wisdom to me. And my wisdom is folly to Him.
William Wallace □ posted 12-31-2000 oi:4i pm [_£?] O
II
Member Lastly to "Man". Your attempts are likely sincere. But, you think like a deist and not a
Christian. A Christian is Trinitarian and believes that the Trinity is foundational model for
relationship and covenant community. Therefore, while in once sense everyone should
desire to be like Jesus Christ, in another sense it would make more sense to view the
totality of God rather than merely looking at one member of the godhead and neglecting the
others.
Therefore, a Christian marriage should be Trinitarian to bear forth the image and likeness of
the community of God. In marriage God the Father remains in position of ultimate headship
from whom all authority is delegated and all orders are given for His glory and His purposes.
The husband should occupy the role of Jesus Christ as stated clearly in Ephesians 5. This
means that, like Christ, men submit to the headship of God their Father and seek His will
and glory over their own. This also means that a man must, like Christ, learn to die to
himself and resurrect to lovingly forgive and lead his bride. Lastly, the woman should
occupy the role of the Holy Spirit as the helper suitable role given her in Genesis 2. The
Holy Spirit is also referred to as the helper throughout the New Testament (paraklete in
greek) come to comfort and empower the children of God to submit to Christ and glorify the
Father. This is the same pattern we see in I Corinthians 11 where we find that the head of
every woman is man, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is the Father.
In this way a man does not need be a woman, or the converse, for their to be equality.
Equality was given in creation by virtue of the fact that both the man and woman were both
made in the image and likeness of God. And, it was not good for the man to be alone, and
nothing that had been created (including man) was a suitable helper so God created woman
to show forth the Trinitarian God to all of creation. In this way it is the unity of cause (the
Fathers glory) that causes oneness and not the unity of roles as is the case with the Father,
Son, and Spirit.
Therefore, God the Father remains the Father. Men should focus on Christ to learn how to be
heads and rulers as He is. And women should learn about the Holy Spirit as their model.
William Wallace □ posted 12-31-2000 01 :44 pm
II
Member Proverbs 18:22 "He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord."
The eastern concept of marriage that is dominant throughout the Old Testament is one in
which the man prepares himself to be a husband and father, and then pursues a woman's
father to win the approval to court her as his bride. The father of the bride is central to
marriage and the young woman is supposed to respectfully submit to her father and he is to
protect her chastity and guard her against potentially undesireable suitors like the young
men who take girls to prom and put their hands down their dress, or worse still young men
who prowl at singles groups hoping to mash on some young woman like a desperate junior
high boy in heat.
Therefore, it is imperative that a young woman have either her father or another man
occupy that role of headship in her life to aid in the selection of her husband. If her father is
absent or unsuited, it would be best for young women to invite an older man (i.e. a church
elder, respectful man in their church, a believing close male relative etc.) to serve in that
regard out of loving concern for her. Paul illustrated this principle with the topic of
headcoverings in Corinthians wherein he essentially stated that women should always be
under submission (first of their father and then of their husband) and demonstrate their
submission in the culturally appropriate sign of such a submissive spirit with the wearing of
a head covering. This transference of headship is symbolized in the Christian tradition of a
father walking a woman down the aisle and then literally giving her away and transferring
his headship to her husband.
Therefore, a man cannot be a limp wristed coward waiting for a good woman to pursue him.
He must not also casually date Christian women test-driving them to find one he really
wants to buy. He should be prepared, responsible, forthright, and honorable.
He must begin by being qualified to take a wife. The following list should help to begin the
introspective process for single men of considering whether they are ready to take a wife
and if not how much work they have to do.
1. Are you a Christian who desires a Christian wife (II Corinthians 6:14)?
2. Do you work hard and make enough money to take care of a wife and child (I Timothy
5:8)?
3. Will you love the wife you take as Christ loves her (Ephesians 5:22-33)?
4. Will you accept the responsibility of headship and leadership of your wife and children
(Colossians 3:18-21)?
5. Do you know your Bible well enough to serve as a pastor to your family and answer your
wife's theological questions (I Corinthians 14:35)?
6. Do have sufficient self-control to be gentle and tender with a woman (I Peter 3:7)?
7. Do you have self control in regards to lusting after other women (Matthew 5:27-30)?
8. Will you be a one-woman man (I Timothy 3:2)?
9. Will you give your body to your wife to explore and enjoy sexually, in sum will you be any
good in bed (I Corinthians 7:1-7)?
10. Will you keep your covenant to your wife for the duration of your life (I Corinthians 7 : 10-
11 )?
11. Are you ready to in every way sever the ties that bind you to your mom and dad
(Genesis 2:24)?
12. Do you know that you do need a wife (Genessis 2:18)?
13. Do you want to be a dad with an exemplary family (I Timothy 3:5,12; Titus 1:6)?
14. Have you kept your appearance so you look good (Song of Songs 5:10)?
15. Will you enjoy your wife (Ecclesiastes 9:9)?
16. Do you like breasts (Proverbs 5:19)?
17. Are you actively involved in a solid local church and submitting to the elders/pastors
there (Hebrews 13:17)?
18. Do you humbly submit to godly older men (I Peter 5:5)?
19. Do you endure discipline and hardship with courage and faith (Hebrews 12:7-11)?
20. Are you self-controlled (Titus 2:6)?
21. Do you embrace your youth as an opportunity to set an example to others of the power
of God in a yielded life (I Timothy 4:12).
22. Do you watch your life and doctrine closely (I Timothy 4:16)?
23. Most importantly, do you gladly submit to Christ's complete authority over all of your life
(I Corinthians 11:3)?
In sum, husbands are told to love their wives, and wives are told to submit to and respect
their husbands. The men must not love as psychologists tell them, but instead as Scripture
does in some of the ways listed above. And, a man needs to tell a woman that his love is
heartfelt, as well as shown practically in these ways. If a man does these things out of the
power of God's grace alone then most every woman who has the Spirit of God within her
submits and respects that man.
Men, here is a secret, if you want a woman to be attracted to you, you must be attractive. If
you want a woman to respect you, you must be the kind of man she can be proud of and
speak highly of. In the Song of Songs the bride says "no wonder the maidens adore you."
She knew that she got a good man, the kind that all the other women had admired and
hoped for. Today, the problem is that there are too few men of nobility and desirability
which forces the women in our churches to remain single, become independent and
feministic (even if ever so slightly) and either settle for some half-a-man, or remain single
indefinitely. It all rides or falls with the men.
And, once a man is ready for a bride, he should then select a woman he has gotten to know
in a causal way and request permission from her father (or other head) to court her as a
potential spouse.
More later...
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
Rex
Junior Member
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
D posted 01-01-2001 03:14 PM LO]
"And Squatting Bear's suggestion of a Vision Quest... (How can we follow that through
properly?)"
To Man,
Real simple:
1) get out of town
2) sit in ONE SPOT for three days
3) don't eat anything the whole time (it also helps not to sleep or severly limit one's water
intake)
4) PRAY
5) expect to get your ass SEVERLY beaten spiritually
any other questions?
D posted 01-01-2001 10:08 PM LJ31
Wow. It's been a while. It's nice to be back.
WWII, you are making more sense all the time. Thank you for being patient (!?) with those
who are trying to really get what you are saying.
There's been some great stuff coming up here, and less and less petty bickering over
semantics and a pussified view of God. I think it's pretty encouraging. Whether that means
that the pussified are leaving or coming around I don't know, but I'm encouraged
nonetheless.
I'm excited to be a part of this thing. WWII, please expect my application soon.
By the way squatting bear: If you're going to go the vision quest route, you missed a very
important step: pray for protection for your heart and mind. The way you've got it set up,
you'll be opening yourself up to all sorts of input - and not all will be from God. I wouldn't
enter into that kind of thing unless you're prayerfully and scripturally sure that God is calling
you to do it. That's like saying that if you want to hear from God, use LSD. Using rites from
other religions as a method by which to hear from God is a great way to taint your beliefs.
The question about 'doing it properly' has a lot more merit than you might think.
Good New Year to everyone.
Ignorantus Rex
D posted 01-02-2001 06:45 PM L£H
"By the way squatting bear: If you're going to go the vision quest route, you missed a very
important step: pray for protection for your heart and mind. The way you've got it set up,
you'll be opening yourself up to all sorts of input - and not all will be from God. I wouldn't
enter into that kind of thing unless you're prayerfully and scripturally sure that God is calling
you to do it. That's like saying that if you want to hear from God, use LSD. Using rites from
other religions as a method by which to hear from God is a great way to taint your beliefs.
The question about 'doing it properly' has a lot more merit than you might think."
Rex,
I apologize; I forgot, and was assuming that I was only writing to Christians here. Of course,
when one prays, it should only be to the One True God thru Jesus Christ His Son, and again,
I assumed that as with any spiritual endevour on the part of a Christian, prayer for
protection and focus would be central. Whenever a Christian waits upon God, it should
ALWAYS be with discernment, thankfully God gives wisdom to those who ask.
As for being called to "vision quest," "fast," or whatever your culture calls it, it is Christ who
is to be our example in word and deed, and he did a lot of retreating into the wilderness to
pray and seek God. I sincerely believe you don't need some sign or leading to go quest/fast
-we already have Christ's example, and we need to follow.
My point is: Christ did a lot of fasting in remote away-from-people-places. Not just
occasionally, but frequently; how come we don't? Traditionally the church has placed
emphasis on fasting and waiting on God as a routine practice of the Christian. Where is that
emphasis now?
What you call "fasting," or "prayer closet," I call "vision questing."
It is not an issue of syncretism, merely a cultural understanding/label.
I am Indian, I am not white. I refuse to believe the practice that to be a follower of Christ
you have to be european-white-western in thought and culture. The power of Christ is the
power to redeem culture -not eradicate it. If the pioneer missionaries had only understood
this, many of my people would not have been murdered in the name of Christ.
To the best of my knowlege, I don't know of a single tribe that encouraged the use of drugs
(peyote for example) on a quest. The emphasis was always on the journey of prayer and
fasting, which is fully consistant (one and the same) with Christianity. The crucial difference
being that as believers, we have the assurance of being able to come to God the Father thru
Jesus Christ His Son.
Most tribal religions had/have a good understanding of God the Father, and God the Holy
Spirit, they lacked knowlege of the Son.
The beauty of Christ's ministry was that He reached and met people where they were at. "I
become all things..." wrote the apostle Paul.
If Christians today were to follow this example, maybe Indians might be converted. But the
sad fact is, most Christians haven't the faintest idea who and what we are, insisting that we
have to become "white" to be saved -completely forgetting that white people decimated us
with their diseases and alcohol, took our lands, our languages, ect.. what Indian would want
a white Jesus?
man
Junior Member
D posted 01 - 04-2001 09:05 PM LO]
Nice argument, WW2 (William Wallace Mark too ;-)
Lots of good Trinitarian principles for relating with each other. The only exception I have with
it, is it still restricts us into exclusive stereo-types, (and even boxes God!)
I think there are overlaps. They're not mutually exclusive...
That's the Trinitarian mystery. (Unless you think like a modalist.)
There's a lot that the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit share. Very little that they don't...
The Spirit isn't the exclusive Helper: Jesus says He is the one who will be the Helper (John
16 & 14). And God calls Himself the Helper (PslO: 14, Heb 13:6).
So carry on clarifying what men should be.
But CAUTION: Many of the fronts on which men are failing are simply about being Godly
humans. It's for women too.
So I'm saying dont make any quality exclusive to men only, unless you've really got a solid
reason. Careless stereo-types & false dichotomies only restrict growth.
man
Junior Member
D posted 01 - 04-2001 09:07 PM L£3
But, I will stand before God and give an account for what I believed
and how I embodied it. I cannot stand before God and point at the
library of conflicting opinions and say that I respected them all and
thereby failed to have any convictions."
I agree. Read me accurately. I didn't say I dont have an opinion. I said it's not the core issue
of my argument. I dont have time to sidetrack there.
But as a concession, very quickly, let me say I take the Scriptures literally: I take into
account what kind of literature each text is. The nature of this literature does need to be
considered when we interpret it for today. (Just as the Amish should get over the fact that
plastic is not mentioned in the Bible - it didn't exist then. To interpret the text accurately,
we need to consider the context, in order to gain the right principles.)
And the literature of l&2Timothy and Ephesians are letters written by Paul specifically to the
church in Ephesus, which was laboring under the domination of the godess Diana, whose
priestesses had an over-riding influence on everyone's religious thought. I think this context
determined what Paul wrote to Timothy & the Ephesians.
By contrast, when Paul wrote to the Romans, he mentions by name Prsicilla (a teacher even
before her husband), Phoebe (a deacon), and Junia (an outstanding apostle). What do we
make about women in leadership from that?!
So take another look at the texts with the Ephesian context in mind. You may see a different
principle there.
You may not. (Baptists have an olde saying: "In essentials unity; in non-essentials liberty; in
all things love." I agree we should make decisions on these matters, but I dont mind
allowing you the freedom to still come to the same conclusion you hold now - because it's
not an essential issue, eg. the cross & resurection).
What I am saying is this:
Give credit where it's due. Dont set up a straw man to attack. (And dont misinterpret me to
conveniently say whatever you want to attack.) Read what's actually there. THINK about it,
dont just reiterate your present position. Argue the actual case.
man
Junior Member
D posted 01 - 04-2001 09:09 PM L£3
Squatting Bear,
Do you take water?
And does anyone watch your back, for safety?
(If I seem ignorant, it's because I dont live in USA.)
Respectfully,
Man.
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01 - 04-2001 10:06 PM L£3 =0
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach
or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And
Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
But women will be saved [restored] through chiidbearing-if they continue in faith, love and
holiness with purity." - I Timothy 2:11-15
"You must teach what is in accordance with sound doctrine. ..teach the older women
to. ..train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and
pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one
will malign the word of God."
Titus 1:2-5
Man. For example, the Father did not die on the cross and resurrect from the dead. Likewise,
neither did the Spirit. For another example, Jesus came to do the Father's will and not His
own. One God, yes. Great overlap, yes. Continued distinctions, yes. If it were not that we
would have no reason to refer to them as Father, Son and Spirit as distinct persons. Lastly,
men can't have children. Why, because men and women are different. It may seem trivial,
but my wife assures me that it is not. No matter how equal I want to be to her, we will
never be the same. It's much more than culture, it's biology as an outgrowth of creation.
Fler role is different than mine by virtue of creation. That in no way makes one of us better,
but simply much different.
Your verses are very weak in arguing for an elimination of gender distinction. A husband and
wife team worked together helping Paul plant churches and sometimes the wife is
mentioned first, and sometimes the husband is mentioned first. That's a long way from her
being an elder ruling over men in a local church - something we are never told about her.
Phoebe was likely a deacon, which is different than a ruling and teaching elder. And, at the
end of Romans the person mentioned is possibly a man and possibly a woman, the gender
is unclear and the name in that day could go either way (i.e. like Pat in our day), and we
are told that this person is "outstanding among the apostles" which does not show that they
were an apostle, but instead that their work with (or among the apostles) was outstanding.
You cannot give me any book of the Bible written by a woman, any woman disciple, or any
woman pastor in the New Testament. Paul tells Titus to appoint elders in every town (Titus
1:5) and then explains that one of the requirements is that they be men. If you are arguing
this is all cultural why would it begin in Genesis with creation and continue with Paul saying
the same thing to the church at Colosse, Corinth, Ephesus, Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia,
Asia, Bithynia, Macedonia and Crete - that men and women are different and that men
should rule in authority over homes and churches? In light of the multiple cities and cultures
and dates of writing it seems pretty clear it is a cross-cultural principle. Lastly, the cultural
argument was addressed by Paul and he claims that men's and women's roles are
principally chosen at creation, and then practically lived out in culture (I Corinthians 11:9).
Are you really suggesting that somehow Jesus and Paul were pussified men afraid to
confront culture so they caved in and took the easy route by choosing men thereby sinning
against equally qualified women?
Lastly, you are exactly what is wrong with men. Crappy arguments, paper thin Scriptural
support, and a dogmatic claim that you know what the hell you are talking about. My guess
you are not an elder, and likely not married.
My final question is for you. If there is no gender distinctions at creation between men and
women then are you logically also not supportive of homosexual relationships? Look at
culture and the church and you'll see that the first domino is feminism (there is no creation
difference between men and women) and the second is homosexuality (therefore men
loving men is no different than men loving women because there is no difference between
men and women other than what culture creates as a gender identity).
Is your pastor a woman? Are you gay? Are you married? Are you an elder? Are you sure you
know what the hell you're talking about? Do you seriously think you have a case? Do you
seriously think your arguments are worthwhile? Is that the best you've got? Sad, I've got a
long list of women who would theologically take you to the woodshed and prove they
shouldn't be pastors, heads of homes, or ruling over men and they would curse you out for
telling them to be men and telling their husbands to be women. Some could probably kick
your ass to boot.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-05-2001).]
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-05-2001).]
man
Junior Member
D posted 01-04-2001 10:24 PM L23I
WW2, i think you are arguing the case better now. At last.
But, again, I'm NOT arguing for no gender distinctions.
- You keep trying to overstate my case. (So that you can shoot me down. But all you do is
miss the mark, and shoot down something else I didnt say.)-
I'm arguing that NOT EVERYTHING that Paul addresses to men is necessarily exclusively for
men and not women.
And dont insult me personally.
I'm actually a friend of yours.
(One limitation of this forum is that so much is said outside the context of a genuine
relationship. As you've already conceded, the genuine community is the context which
makes better sense of the words.)
Man.
man D posted 01-04-2001 10:29 PM LO]
Junior Member
Likewise I'm NOT arguing there's no distinction in the Trinity.
I'm saying there's lots of overlap.
The truth is in the paradoxes.
You should know that.
PS - Wouldn't the woodshed women prove my case?
man
Junior Member
D posted 01-04-2001 10:38 PM [jHI
I'm going to leave it for someone else to argue your so-called rebuttal of the verses, just to
see if anyone else is out there. (If not, go into your huddle.)
Here's some clues:
- Women disciples, yes.
- The same rule applies to the description of a deacon as for elder - a man. But you admit
Phoebe was a...
- Pat could be a man.
Testing, testing. One, two, three.
Not arguing for androgeny, but neither exclusivity.
I've got to go to work.
Married, Dad, Elder, Contact-sport-playin'
Man.
William Wallace q posted 01-05-2001 09:14 am L£2I -O
II
Member The responsiblities for a deacon and and elder are similar, but differ in ruling and teaching.
Phoebe may or may not have been a deacon. The word used of her is a servant. At times it
is used for a woman who serves. At other times it is used as an official office. In this case, it
is not ultimately clear since the Romans 16 section is not relating directly to any offices in
the context, just faithful people and their service. If she were listed in Timothy or Titus
context would have made it more clear. The listing for deacons does include a caveat about
their wives which some take to mean that a deacons wife must live upto those qualities, but
I would take to mean that the wives are likely serving alongside their husbands as deacons.
After all, a deacon is serving others in ways of mercy, compassion, administration and the
like. This is much different that teaching, preaching, disciplining, leading etc. - basically
headship. I would suggest that you have a very confused ecclesiology.
And, women disciples - of course. Jesus taught women. Women apostles - no way. He never
chose one and certainly had the cans to do so if it were right. You've got a few straws and
I've got an iron clad house. And, I feel a nice stiff breeze blowing.
And to the offense. If you are a friend (and I am unsure who you are) I am offended that
someone as confused as you would call me a friend. Anyone who hangs with me should
have a clearer head. I've been nice enough to answer your questions, but the heart of mine
(creation) has been neglected by you. And, are you also pro-queer? Is your pastor a
woman? Is your wife an elder? Would you let her rule over you in the church?
Whatever you do, do not go see Mel Gibson's movie "What Women Want." It promotes the
same sort of male lesbianism that you are promoting.
For some clearer sections, how about I Timothy 2:9-3:7 written as a general epistle to a
region of churches telling them each the roles of men and women as found in creation?
Likewise, Titus 1:5-9 and 2:1-5 are equally forthright about the distinctions? Look through
your posts, you have yet to deal with any clear Scriture on rule in the church and gave only
a cursory nod to rule in the home. A lot of chit chat about theological categories, very little
work in the Word on those straighforward sections.
Here's a free one to chew on. Let's suppose the women were pagan sluts in a few cities Paul
wrote to. You are suggesting that because of that Paul did not appoint women elders. What
the hell does what is going on in the city have to do with who rules in the church. In my city
we have lots of pagan sluts and we still don't have any women elders. If Paul indeed
thought that women could be elders he would have likely appointed many women elders to
set a counter example to the pagan sluts thereby showing God'd ideal for a woman, rather
than ducking the issue and letting the pagan sluts walk away with the Theological
Superbowl victory.
Yes, the Bible has a lot addressed to men and women. It also has a lot written specically to
men (i.e. nocturnal emissions of semen), women (menstrual cycles), children (obeying
parents), employees (working hard), employers (being fair), elder (being male), deacons
(serving), etc. etc. Why you would not see that as obvious is an indication of selective
reading. I, for example, could fine one jackass in the Old Testament through whom God
preached (Numbers 22:21-30). Using your principles of interpretation I could then argue
that Balaam's jackass set a precedent for four legged furry elders who crap as the preach.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-05-2001).]
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-05-2001).]
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-05-2001).]
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01-05-2001 09:42 AM uCS C2I
"If anyone wants to be contentious about this (the context is male headship and rule in the
home and church), we have no other practices-nor do the churches of God." - Paul in I
Corinthians 11:16
cell'me
Member
D posted 01-05-2001 03:29 PM L£3]
man,
Good efforts. However, the heart of your argument is pointless to WW2 because his primary
concern is the head. What a jack to believe that our "friends" must have a "clearer head" in
order to be considered friends. Wallace, your infatuation with control, power, head-ship is
evident and immaterial. Luther would call it "adiaphra" - not mattering to our salvation.
I guarantee you that the thief on the cross knew and believed less about all the crap you
hold to be so central to the living out of faith than any of us here. He simply asked for Chirst
to "remember" him.
Again, you and your lackeys have repeatedly misconstrued my understanding of what a
"loving God" and a "non-judicial gospel" would look like. A loving God does not abdicate his
ability to get heated and shed light - even burn - the darkness of his creation. I am a fairly
peaceful guy - but, mess with my family and you'll find out just how fast my anger will burn
against you. My peaceful, loving nature does not make me pussified, any more than my
unmitigated violence toward any aggressor confronting my family would make me a manly
man. Please stop confusing God's sovereign will to be angry, wrathful or judicious with your
immediate need/desire for him to be always that just so you can feel safe and justified in
your hurting, afraid little world.
Your manhood is not found in your theology, your wife, your church - it is found in your
saving relationship with Jesus Christ. So get off the soapbox and start sharing your HEART
versus your "clear head" regarding communities of faith. Jesus is not so interestred in our
ecclesiastical orders as he is in our hearts. Although I believe the one flows out of the other.
Get the order confused and you end up with this lame "who's a homo, who's a man" kind of
back and forth. Meaning, one promotes unity, while the other promotes demagoguery. In
this case, you and your merry band of yes-men!
[This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 01-05-2001).]
man D posted 01-05-2001 04:56 PM L£H
Junior Member
You call my arguments thin? Well aren't you the double-standard-meister!
Your 1 Cor 11:9 verse has no bearing on the argument. It's saying the woman came from
man, and was made for man. But it's an argument for hairstyles. How can it be consistent
to flout hairstyle rules, yet enforce gender domination?
You say Phoebe was a deacon. But the same texts you say demand a male elder, also
demand a male deacon. So, if Phoebe's a deacon, it's possible there were women elders too
(although I'll admit it doesn't specifically name one). If you dont concede that, you're being
inconsistent.
Re: Junia/Junias, the word "outstanding" is really applied to the person, in the Greek. (Yes, I
read Greek.)
And by the way:
Junia is not a name like Pat: that's impossible because Greek is a gender sensitive language
- the gender of the person always determines the ending of the name (and verbs etc):
vowel for feminine, consonant for masculine. So we're actually looking at textual variants
here: Junias a man, or Junia a woman.
(Oh, and if I'm wrong about Junia, I'm OK. If you're wrong about Junia, your case is
stuffed.)
And we do have notable Biblical women of influence:- Miriam alongside Joshua, Deborah in
the time of judges, Ruth, Abigail, Esther. Mary Magdala, Mary Jesus' mum, Mary & Martha
of Bethany would have to be counted among Jesus disciples, altho not in the twelve, they
were there all along, including the upper room. Jesus' dignifying view of women (and
children, and other outcasts) was revolutionary, you must admit!
Priscilla is initially mentioned after Aquiila, but as her prominence grew, she's mentioned first
thereafter. That's significant, because the pattern was to mention the more prominent one
first. She became the more recognised teacher!
So what's with 1 Tim 2:13-15? Frankly I dont mind saying I dont know what Paul's saying
here, because he's just finished saying all women should be silent! but yet then he's OK
with Priscilla teaching in & around Rome. Go figure! He argues from Genesis a case for
silence which he's OK about waiving in Priscilla's case?
(Besides, Paul, Adam was deceived too, and not even by the serpent! I just don't get those 2
verses. Yet.)
It doesn't surprise me that no woman wrote a book of the Bible, because nearly all were
illiterate!!! Hello! And you have to admit, that's a plausible explanation as to why Paul
assumed that church leadership would be male...
Our disagreement on these texts might be a case of 2 logical interpretations of all the data...
man
Junior Member
but the arguments aren't really water-tight on EITHER side...
You wrote "you are exactly what is wrong with men. Crappy arguments,
paper thin Scriptural support, and a dogmatic claim that you know
what the hell you are talking about." That also cuts both ways my friend.
You also wrote "My guess you are not an elder, and likely not married."
Admit it, you've been wrong on a few counts!
D posted 01-05-2001 05:06 PM LO
WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN???
This is supposed to be about men. I'm not saying we're the same. I'm qualifying WW2.
Saying that women have more scope than you give them credit for. It may not be as the
final overseer, but if they've got the skills & gifts of God, and fruit of the Spirit, dont restrict
them too much.
So returning to your earlier questions:
* Should my pastor be a man or woman? - In the absence of a named woman in that role, I
can accept the answer 'man'. (But since in China's church movement they've never thought
to ask that question, it makes me wonder whether that's a cultural question. Perhaps China
is more like Rome, or Cenchreae.)
* Should my wife and children submit to me as the head of my home? - Yes. But remember
we're supposed to submit to one another (Eph 5:21).
* Should I provide financially for my family? - Yes. But dont forget Prov 31.
* Are my wife and I sexually obligated to serve one another without considering our body as
our own posession? - Except for MUTUAL agreement.
* Should my wife have her ministry directed homeward to our children or can we put them
in daycare for someone else to parent? - Injunctions are for Parents, not daycarers... and
often for fathers!
* Should I be gay or straight? - Straight. But if you know any gays, you'll know it's all they
can do to be celebate in practice. The change of mind (ie repentence = changing the mind,
renewing the mind) that is needed for gay people, as for all compulsive sinners, is about
recovery, and only the HS can bring it.
* Should I stay married or can I get a divorce? - The concession about divorce is because of
sin. Sin causes divorce.
* If divorced can I get remarried? - Depends on who's sin caused the divorce. If you've
walked out, remarrying is sin upon sin.
* And the list continues ad nauseum.
As for your good 23 points. Yes to all!!!
One qualification, though.
Point 4: "4. Will you accept the responsibility of headship and leadership of
your wife and children (Colossians 3:18-21)?" Those verses talk about "loving" your wives.
"Not harshly." Headship isnt even mentioned there.
And this is the guts of my argumentative stand to you WW2.
- You overstate too much.
You need someone to push back, and make you listen to yourself.
Listen, I dont disagree that boys masquerading as men should grow up. There're too many
boys in the pews. And too many effeminate, woosy songs & practices in the church. It
makes me sick. (We dont do that stuff in our meetings.)
But if you start a movement given to exaggeration, it's a matter of nanoseconds before
you're into heresy.
What I wonder is;
now that I have to sign off and go camping for a few weeks,
who will be that resistance for you?
- How will you ensure you dont trade true manliness for machismo?
- And who among you is going to safeguard the movement against rednecks and bullying?
- Who will argue for manly gentleness, patience and kindness. (Yes those words of the most
excellent way from lCorl3. And if it makes me pussified to mention those words, then
remember, those words are not original to me.)
- Will you teach the full paradox of manliness, or will you settle for half-truths?
I hope I'm wrong about my guess.
Man.
Ben Harleman
Junior Member
D posted 01-06-2001 12:20 PM L£E □ ^
I hope you all get to where God is taking you with this. But remember to keep it Gods will
and not our own agenda. In the end I hope to see all in Heaven.
KZA D posted 01-06-2001 04:53 PM LO]
Junior Member
quote:
Originally posted by Ben Harleman:
I hope you all get to where God is taking you with this. But remember to
keep it Gods will and not our own agenda. In the end I hope to see all
in Heaven.
Don't be afraid of a little nastiness in theological debate, Ben. This is all they did in the early
days of the reformation. Fun to watch, no?
ReformUrAss □ pos ted 01 - 06-2001 05:37 pm LEU □
Member
Question:
How can you tell if a man does not really read his bible or does not believe what he reads in
it as Paul instructs us to in Romans 3:4(Let God be true and every man a liar)?
Answer:
He keeps spewing out a bunch of crappy W.W.J.D. theology.
Cell me' did you trade you bible in for a bracelet that says W.W.J.D.?
Lets take a look into your mind for a second shall we? Everybody ready? We are gonna take
a trip into Cell'me's head.
*** Man is it good to be me. i think i'll go to check out the midrash so i can show everybody
my cool postmodern god... what the hell? looks a bunch of those god-damned calvinist are
talking about their rapist God! Doesn't it say over and over again in the bible that God loves
us? And since my (and this present ages') understanding of love is sacrificing so that others
can feel better and enjoy themselves more, I better show them my kinder gentler god. The
way my god demostrates his love is this: in some crazy miraculous paradox god has given
me free will by limiting his own and there by made me feel better and enjoy myself more.
What is all this sin and wrath God that those calvinists are always talking about? What does
that have to do with the gospel of love? (Romans 5:8 -But God demonstrates his own love
for us in this: while we were still sinners Christ died for us).
I want to make people listen to me. I know everybody really respects that jesus guy so if i
talk about him who is gonna argue with me. damn! who the hell is Jesus? I suppose i could
just make up my own jesus but i'd have to know something about the real guy. come on
brain lets think, who is jesus, who is jesus. oh yeah! he is that guy who was always loving
everybody! it also says somewhere in the bible that love is like the most import thing and
everybody knows that too. i got these guys now. * * ***
shaun
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
Cell me: if you ever come around my family (Marshill) with your "non-judgemental" gospel, I
will personally anathmatize your ass. Galatians 1:8,9.
D posted 01-06-2001 06:54 PM Li/3] =H
that's ridiculous, ReformUrAss.
D posted 01-06-2001 07:58 PM L$2] C2]
you make a good point shaun.
I should just leave cell me alone.
I already made my point loud and clear the first time that he is giving a bad gospel.
I was happy when he was shut up a long time ago, but now since somebody else feels its
their appointed duty to be the voice of contention in this string it has given him a renewed
courage to run off at the mouth again.
This does not mean i am not serious about everything i said. I mean by anathmatize that i
will fight against his gospel to my death.
D posted 01-06-2001 07:58 PM LO] =B
Man, are you serious? You want to argue against headship, and then argue that you should
be mine. You are funny in a sad way. If you know me, and I think I know you, then you
know I am under more authority than you, with more stronger men in my life, am a loving
husband, good father, and tight theologian. And, you know my case is stronger and only a
completely pussified man with a guilty conscience beaten by a bad liberal theological
education would prevent you from changing teams. You are simply wrong and all your
bantering has given me a headache because the arguments are shitty.
All godly women were illiterate - even good businesswomen like Lydia? Come on. Even
someone who's illiterate can be an elder, it is not one of the qualifications. My buddies in
Haiti have an 80% illiterate congregation and some illiterate elders and they are very good
men. I Corinthians 11 is not about hairstyles, hairstyles were a form of showing that men
who profess Christ should not appear as gay or women - you're way off since the context is
propriety in worship and that was a very very very sloppy answer. What Paul's saying to
Timothy is in direct relation to the local church and you do know what it says, you just don't
like it. And that is the problem with pussified men. They claim paradox and mystery not on
the unclear things, but instead on the clear things that they don't like. The text on deacons
goes on to say "in the same way their wives" I Timothy 3 which seems to indicate that
maybe the wives were also deacons serving with their husbands. There is no similar
injunction for elders. You can do as you please. You may want to read Biblical Eldership by
Alexander Strauch as an attempt to sort out a very confused ecclesiology. If you are an
elder then you should also have other elders to study with and come to some sense of
clarity.
Lastly, I have been wrong on nothing. Occasionally I am, but on the issue of church
government it's rare.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-06-2001).]
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-06-2001).]
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-06-2001).]
D posted 01-06-2001 08:42 PM L£3 □ ^
So now that we have completely put all of you to sleep, let's clarify. Why is church
government so important? Because if your church is screwed up it's a good bet the families
and people in it are as well and there's no way to correct things as they slide. Basically,
you've got three options.
One, senior pastor. In this church one guy is head cheese and rules over everything. This is
a good way to start a harem and/or a cult. If you are in a church like this you have a pastor
with no peers, no accountability and the odds are that at some point he'll end up knocking
boots with his secretary and not paying her overtime for it.
Two, congregational rule. In this form everyone who breathes gets to vote on things and
God's will is treated like a democratic election. And, we all know how well those go. It's like
a family where the two year olds vote cancels out the fathers. It's insane. If you go to a
church like this you will never accomplish anything and business meetings will be very very
painful and filled with people who don't do anything but do like to talk a lot (it's a lot like
phone sex in this way).
Three, elder governed wherein a team of men qualified for the office rule with authority over
the church in such matters as doctrine and discipline to teach and lead the church. The men
live in mutual submission and that model is to be carried down so that everyone in the
church is under authority and in accountable community, including everyone to Christ,
husbands to elders, wives to husbands, and children to parents. This system is not
guarantee that things will be perfect, but at least there's a way to efficiently deal with them
should someone screw up your church. The elders should all be men who meet biblical
criteria, and there wives should be godly and their children obedient. They should serve
together in ministry as a family with hospitality and lives devoted to the work of the gospel.
Why is all this important? In the first two models church discipline is rarely if every done
because their is no accountability for anyone. Therefore, the men and women run wild
screwing up the work of the gospel, wrecking marriages, and destroying families. Without
strong authority hierarchy you've got a case where everyone does right in their own eyes.
So, if you are in one of the first two churches you should make a stink. If things don't
change, you are in a jacked church. And, if you've got women elders then the message to
every woman in the church is that women need not submit to men's authority, and the men
will respond by either being pussified or not doing a damn thing, and hell will start to look
like a very nice place in comparison to your church.
William Wallace □ posted 01 - 06-2001 08:45 pm LOl O
II
Member Cell'me, you used to bug me like jock itch, praise music, and minivans. But, I've grown to
love you. You are great. You are so insane that you make me look normal. For that, I am
grateful. Sincerely. From my heart.
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01-06-2001 09:01 PM L£E □
I love to fight. It's good to fight. Fighting is what we used to do before we all became
pussified. Fighting is a lost art form. Fighting is cheaper than medication and more effective
than counseling. Fighting always wins over compromise. Fighting is what passionate people
do instead of killing. So log on, fight away. And if you are reading this and talking to
yourself log on you coward and get in the ring.
hopeful
Member
D posted 01-06-2001 10:59 PM HIE
Skewter- right on man, i kind of wish it was like the old days that way i wouldn't have to go
out to some lame gym with mirrors on every wail to keep my body looking like it should. Do
I know you?
Elder-Bob- Yo man if your still around here somewhere, and if you actually exist i'm sorry
your in leadership. And stay away from the West Wing it has obviously contaminated your
mind with that sickning interpretation of what the old testemant law was all about.
more to come..
cell'me
Member
D posted 01-06-2001 11:54 PM L£3
Wallace,
Thanks for the shout out. No coward am I. I've been tuned in from the start and have
wrestled with your presentation of this topic almost as much as I've struggled with the
reality you are, in fact, someone I have listened to and respected from a distance in the
past. Perhaps that is why I have refrained from going "toe-to-toe" with you in some kind of
Scriptural, theologized game of chicken. I believe you'd whomp me. However, this does not
mean I am without fight.
I have been exposed to and sickened by liberal theology at its finest. At the Lutheran
seminary I attended, two women lectured on their book regarding "divine child-abuse".
Essentially arguing that God abused Jesus by sending Him to the cross against His will.
What a crock. The liberal agenda is sending many mainline, protestant churches running for
cover. I see it and it pisses me off.
However, I also am repulsed by "over-the-top, 'I'm always right', let me argue Scripture
piece-meal rather than in total about non-salvation dependent issues" church folk. The
lather far too often far exceeds the scope of the Gospel. Some of the caustic responses on
the bb have been wholly without regard for any sense of restraint.
Responses from the likes of Bryan, skewter, ReformllrAss and yourself have regularly lacked
any congruity with Christian accountability. Tough love? Bring it. Half-men shouting at the
top of their lungs about ONE character of God because they are pissed off? Forget it.
Reform,
One more time for the thick - God does not abdicate His right or His ability to be judicial and
wrathful. But He is not simply that. If you think God his, for eternity, sitting rage-filled and
vengeful, then you are a sorry man indeed. Read your own theme verse - "while we were
yet sinners" - God's holiness and sense of justice demands our damnation. So what does he
do instead? He reconciles us to Himself and makes us righteous. According to you, we
should all (including your sorry self) be barbecued, and yet, God chose another way.
Finally, a God who does not judge, cannot save. God makes judgements all the time. He
judges sin (yours and mine), he judges life and death, he judges the hearts and minds of
each of us. Not you. Keep your mind-trips to yourself - they smack of incessant narcissism.
skewter 0 posted 01-07-2001 03:21 am L22I
Junior Member
cell'me, man -
i would caution you guys to stay away from the urge to simplify this discussion, this is not
about choosing teams and taking sides.
this is about an issue that has been on the hearts of myself, members of my family, my
friends, and many others obviously, if the amount of messages in this forum are any
indication, gender roles, and especially the roles of men, are being softened at the edges,
vital components of are being eaten away, we can all agree that this is true.
Wallace hapenned to be the one that posted a message about this phenomenon, it struck a
chord with a lot of people, this is how God works, who cares if Wallace makes a few social
mistakes? the point is still clear, you two seem to be arguing with Wallace the person
instead of taking the time to think about what the point of this discussion might be. what's
the significance of the fact that this is the most popular thread on this board? the
pussification of men is a real problem, obviously!
honestly, i think your aguments are frivolous and tangential, and what's worse, you're
preventing this discussion from moving forward and reaching the stage where it could be
cell'me
Member
Orual
Junior Member
come a physical reality instead of just a discussion, i think it's awful, every time i run across
one of your posts, i'm more infuriated by your amazing ability to miss the point, what do
you hope to accomplish?
i understand the need for balance, and the need to consider all facets of the personality of
God, but sometimes one needs to manifest itself for a while for something to get done.
Sometimes a war is needed, that doesn't mean God doesn't love peace! Sometimes loud
voices are needed, that doesn't mean God isn't gentle, kind. That is just not the point right
now. We're not addressing the issue of sensitivity or emotional maturity in men right now.
Amazingly, our own culture is stuffing plenty of that down our throats, at the expense of
everything else.
I know you both mean well, but please, save your arguments for later. Let's have some
unity. Let's figure out how to do somethig real, together, as Godly men.
D posted 01-07-2001 01:31 PM LsLS
skewter,
Thanks for the even-handed, clearly made point minus any personal attack while cloaked in
cyber-induced anonymity. I appreciate you taking the time to say, "good points, now let's
move on." Too often, others have decided the best defense of the Gospel is to label eveyone
in opposition to a particular position as something less than human. And that, more than
anything else, has smacked of everything wrong about young, angry men struggling with
mis-directed violence.
I will say this though, how tangential is the issue of "church government"? This seems fairly
peripheral to me in matters of personal spiritual development. For example, the point
Wallace made earlier was that pussified men take no responsibility for their own sinfulness
and abdication of headship in the home and/or church. Then he posits the notion that
proper church government will somehow prevent this. Why? If the responsibility is
ultimately mine then why should I be given the ready-made excuse that the church has
failed me because of poor church government? "Oh my, the senior pastor had an affair. I'm
having a crisis of faith and now I'm having an an adulterous affair, too." What kind of jack
point is that. The governance of the local church should matter very little in the personal,
devotional and worship life of the individual. If it matters too much, the issue belies a far
greater spiritual battle than whether or not my Sr. Pastor is a solitary sinner or my elders
are a larger collection of sinners.
Bottom line, no "system" is going to guarantee that sin and corruption and abuse is going to
be eradicated. It simply comes packaged differently. The Roman Catholic church has always
had a high regard for ecclesiastical order and structure and their history is fraught with
abuse and disorder. Today the mormons are as concerned with church government as any
other faith group and yet who in the Christian community would applaud their
understanding about how the local church should function? No one - because their whacked
theology effectively renders their standing in the Christian community as irrelevant.
So, how does the issue of church government relate to being de-pussified when the fact of
the matter is the pussified men come out of and are in every type of church in existence -
including yours and mine. The reality is the church as a system or an institution is not
meant to function in this way, but brothers and sisters in Christ - the body of Christ - by the
Holy Spirit should be about the de-pussification of one another. And it can happen without
all the crap flying around this bb as you (and even Wallace at times) have shown with your
more reasoned responses.
Anyway, I see and agree with your latest post and so let me puil back some for now.
D posted 01-07-2001 02:02 PM LO
WWII: "This system is not guarantee that things will be perfect, but at least there's a way to
efficiently deal with them should someone screw up your church."
Cell'Me: "Bottom line, no "system" is going to guarantee that sin and corruption and abuse is
going to be eradicated."
ReformUrAss
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
cell'me
Member
Pay attention to the conversation, Cell'Me. You're arguing blindly and making a fool of
yourself in the meantime.
D posted 01-07-2001 05:59 PM LiE EE ^
Where do does this dogmatic attitude that people are always supposed to talk to each other
in some Victorian, you have your opinion i have mine, edicit? Words like "even-handed" are
automatically virtues and nobody can make somebody else uncomfortable or convicted by
confronting them. People suggest that this is not speaking in "love". Why dont we pray that
God creates all boys born from here on with breasts and a mentral cycle? We could pray he
floods the earth and starts over again with Oprah and the cast from the Today show.
I will tell you where this dogmatic attitude comes from - The Seclorum/The world/This
present age. And from the god of this world - the father of lies/the deciever/the one who
appears as a angel of light
read John chapter 8 and tell me that Jesus is not fighting with the Pharisees. He throws mud,
mocks, ridcules, is yelling, and if you ask me he is pretty stinking funny too.
hey did anybody see how fast cellme shot out of here? What was the last thing he said, "Well
I am starting to feel pretty stupid now so I guess you all wont hear from me for a while." I
have heard this before but all the sudden you thought you had some theology or something
and piped up again.
Were did ja go boy? I know you hidin out there? You was quick to step like you had
something but then you high tailed it outta here so fast that you left your panties behind.
You really should have not left that last post, man, you really came off like a real idiot. I'd
quote some of the crap you spewed up but i dont got time. Go ask your pastor if she will
give you a bible.
D posted 01-07-2001 09:28 PM EE =H
The first thing a manly man learns about his salvation is that he now belongs to God and
exists for God's glory and that his life is to be poured out for his church family, immediate
family, and overall cause of the gospel. He, therefore, does not have some ridiculous
"personal relationship" with Jesus but instead is a part of a larger system called a church in
which if one part suffers their lives are so intersected that they all suffer. The church is
there to discipline, teach, encourage and admonish the men to be like Christ and die to their
own interests and agendas and lovingly serve and lead others for God's glory and their joy.
Therefore it is imperative that the right men lead this army of soldiers with clear directives
ultimately given them from the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Without such good
headship in the church the men who are teachable will grow weary and discouraged as they
flounder alone, and the sinful rebels will run free and use their authority to take advantage
of women and the church to their own gain. If you cannot see how the church relates to
your "personal" salvation I would encourage you to remember that the Bible is written to
communities (the nation of Israel and the churches) and the times that it is written to
individuals (i.e. Timothy and Titus) is solely to build them up so that they can find good men
and build them up for the benefit of all the churches.
D posted 01-07-2001 10:34 PM L£E
Wallace,
I see the connection b/w my personal salvation and the church very well. However, you
yourself begin at the same place I do. To quote you, WW2:
"The first thing a manly man learns about HIS salvation is that he now belongs to God and
exists for God's glory and that his life is to be poured out for his church family, immediate
family, and overall cause of the gospel."
Even you recognize the fact that God begins his work in the individual first. Without
individuals coming together, there is no church. A church plant doesn't typically (save for
Acts) spring up over night with 100, 500, 1000+ people. It is God calling his people and
gathering them together through the believers set apart for His work.
Genesis tells us that God did not create a massive race of people all once, but first Adam and
then Eve. From the few to the many. Yes, the Bible is written to communities of faith - and
they are all, first and foremost, made up of individuals. Don't obliterate the individual in the
race to build some massive commune along the lines of the Bagwhan Shree Rajhsneeshee
(sp?) camp in Oregon back in the 80's. God began with the conversion of Saul to Paul
before He ever sent Paul to the masses.
Reform:
My reading of John is not as superficial or myopic as your own. I accept everything you
propose of Jesus from John's Gospel. But let's not stop there. John also shows Jesus
receiving Nicodemus in the night to answer honest questions of faith. Other Gospel accounts
tell us of Jesus gathering with sinners and tax collectors and inviting himself into their
homes (Zacchaeus) to share the Truth with them. Jesus reserved his heat/anger for the
religiously self-righteous who claimed authority, in the same way you do, when they had
none. For those honestly, humbly seeking His face. His Truth, he guided them in the paths
of righteousness - some times gently, some times forcefully and always in love. For the
over-inflated, mouthy punks who masked their true motives (i.e., control, power, etc.)
behind religosity He gave them a taste of God's contempt.
As for my absence: don't worry about my comings and goings. It is obvious you care
primarily for yourself and your need to be right.
Shaun □ posted 01-08-2001 02:40 AM LSOI O
Junior Member
is there much in the Bible about church government outside of Paul's writings? ...like any of
the other original apostles, or Jesus?
admittedly, this is tangential, i'm hoping context will bring some light to certain issues.
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
All times are PT (US)
Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
POST REPLY
Hop to:
General
IfjMjl
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
JAN
N
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 7.html
2 captures
28 Jan 01 - 19 Nov 02
DEC
◄
2000
28
2001
►
2 (
v'lidrash' A R s ^
UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
S& Midrash
hfc 1 General
I Pussified Nation (Page 7)
POST REPLY
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author
Topic: Pussified Nation
Wax
Junior Member
D posted 01-08-2001 09:32 AM [jHI
It's January what's up with the movement? All I hear is a lot of talk and a lot of whispering.
No one knows anything, no one I know of has seen anything.
So what's the Deal WWII?
MAKE WITH THE MOVEMENT!!!
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01-08-2001 09:57 AM L£H
It takes a couple weeks to plan for world domination. Our first meeting will be in the
afternoon on Saturday February 3rd. More details will be forthcoming...
William Wallace □ posted 01-08-2001 10:14 am ClS □
This week I will talk about the joys of being a manly man who, though not perfect, walks in
God's will.
It is a burden to financially provide for one's family. Squatting Bear's posting was particularly
salient on this point and is appreciated. In addition to my more than full-time job I've had to
take on a second part-time job as well as the occasional one-time couple day contract. We
do not waste any money, but my bride and I have decided to arrange our lives around the
gospel and not the route which is easiest. Therefore, we have chosen to live in the city near
our church, and have a home large enough to entertain (we currently see upwards of 3000
people a year pass through our home), house guests, and practice the fading art of biblical
hospitality. As you might suggest the cost of such a lifestyle is quite burdensome to
shoulder. In addition to tithing to our church, we also have thousands of dollars in related
hospitality costs. It would have been much easier to move out the city far from our church
and live a private and simple life disconnected from other members of God's body. But, it is
a privilege and honor to open my home and serve the gospel in partnership with my wife
and children and to see their spiritual gifts be used by God for His glory and others joy. At
two years of age my daughter prayed over a convicted child molester in our living room. My
wife frequently meets with young women to follow the admonition in Titus that older women
should teach the younger. I have seen my young son become social and hospitable, often
sitting on the laps of people who've had a bad day and encouraging them by his affection.
We have seen couples decide to marry, unbelievers come to faith, and hundreds of people
grow in faith right in our living room. But, none of this would not have been possible if my
wife were at work and my children in daycare. Had I remained single out of selfishness or
fear I would have learned none of the countless lessons GOd has given me through the life
in Christ with my family. I am the head of this little congregation and must function as their
pastor, father, and husband. It is a burden, the weight is heavy, but the grace of God is
more than sufficient. I love to carry the weight God has given me and see my wife and
children loved, cared for, taught, and encouraged to pursue the work of the gospel. If I
were not carrying this weight I would likely spend my days in complete self absorption and
wander into many sins.
aztechjohn
Junior Member
Squatting Bear
Junior Member
D posted 01-08-2001 01:14 PM USI =□
A friend told me I should check out this site saying Mars Hills has a cool ministry going on
here. This is my first experience here. I decided to check out this posting because it is
obviously a "Hot Topic".
What I found here is disgusting and degrading to this forum and web site.
OK, I understand here, someone was trying to make a point. To be honest, I shut off after
reading the first 50 postings here. This person's point was no longer valid given the
techniques he (or she) used to present it.
I dont care what the point of the original posting was! Using foul, rotten language is wrong.
Period! It is just wrong. Degrading and putting down others to be scarcastic is against all
the teachings of Jesus. There is no room for this style within His love.
I know the whole point of Mars Hill is to bring the message of Christ and his love to the
community. I read several postings from members who just joined to check out the forums
here. Some were Christians. Some were not. What kind of a witness and testimony is this to
them?
William Wallace II,
I do not know if you are a Christian or not. It is not right for me to judge you personally.
I pray that others were not hurt by this disrespect for Jesus and the ministry Mars Hill is
trying to promote and the lives they are trying to touch. I do not hold Mars Hill personally
accountable for this thread.
Additionally, I pray that the Lord grants you the wisdom and discernment to know what is
acceptable and what is unacceptable in the eyes of God.
I pray for peace in these forums.
Blessings...
John Starkey
Phoenix, AZ www.mp3.com/poorkids4u
(if you want to contact me)
D posted 01-08-2001 01:23 PM LO]
At the risk of sounding like some self-preening peacock, I'd like to restate my point.
When scripture commands a man to provide for his own, I don't believe it was referring
exclusively to the financial side of things.
Exactly where does money rank?
Pretty far down there for the believer (1 Tim 6:9)
I believe it is inestimately more important for the husband and father to provide love,
attention, guidence, time(!) to his wife and children than being able to purchase for his
family the latest Playstation or brandname jeans. A real man places the needs of his family
(time and attention) over the "needs" of his employer (can you stay late?). There must be a
healthy balance between work and home, but family must always take priority over career.
It is a beautiful thing, Wallace, that you can involve your family in your work, that much of
your work is done from your home; but yours is a very rare situation, and impossible for
many.
If I may wax personal, growing up my father for a number of years worked three jobs
simultaneously. He would get up at 2 am for his first one, report to his second about 6 am,
home at 4 or so to carve molds for machine parts until 9 or 10 pm. He was around very
little. Sure, we had food, a roof, and clothing, but no dad; for when he was around, us kids
were all too often hiding from his unpredictably violent temper.
I can count on one hand all the times growing up that I actually had personal interaction
with my dad, and while I'd give him a A+ for his superhuman efforts on the financial end;
on the other aspects I'd have to give him an F. No amount of money can be worth this.
I'm grown up, no longer afraid of my father, and have a wife of my own. In retrospect, I'd
much have rathered that we were homeless than have my father work like he did.
I'm not sharing any of this for anyone's sympathy or fuzzy feelings. I am not a victim. I only
posted this as: here is what I believe, and here is why. Money is not important. Your
relationships are.
KZA D posted 01-08-2001 06:34 PM L£2I
Junior Member
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skewter:
Wallace hapenned to be the one that posted a message about this phenomenon, it struck a
chord with a lot of people, this is how God works, who cares if Wallace makes a few social
mistakes? the point is still clear, you two seem to be arguing with Wallace the person
instead of taking the time to think about what the point of this discussion might be. what's
the significance of the fact that this is the most popular thread on this board? the
pussification of men is a real problem, obviously!
honestly, i think your aguments are frivolous and tangential, and what's worse, you're
preventing this discussion from moving forward and reaching the stage where it could be
come a physical reality instead of just a discussion.
This is just the problem. Closing the mind in order to get something accomplished is scary.
One of the reasons the culture has such a uniformly negative reaction when they hear the
word "Puritan" is because of the way it worked out when Puritans closed their minds. Sin in
the community? Must be because people are practicing witchcraft. Theaters? Close them.
They lead to immorality. Plus, they're stories. Stories are not true. The Bible is true.
Pilgrim's Progress is true. And we can cheat and kill Indians because God predestined us for
this land.
This is the kind of thinking that has freaked me out about Wallace's party all the way
through the discussion. The category "man" is narrow and reactionary, and there is zero
sympathy for males legitimately weak and effeminate. (Go ahead--attack my masculinity.)
A friend of a friend came to Mars Hill, who considers himself gay (although he is not
practicing), who is also relatively open to Christianity. Came and listened, and was not
offended by biblical preaching against homosexuality but by a member's testimony. For this
member, the acid test of whether a church was orthodox or liberal was whether or not
homosexuality was accepted. I don't think it was God's law that drove this friend of a friend
away, but the snide, cliquey way the member presented this opinion and the knowing titters
of approval from the congregation. The friend came to church and saw another club that
refused him entrance, probably the same way he had been rejected in high school or
whatever. He didn't see Jesus, who would denounce his sin vehemently and tell him his
identity was not "homosexual" but "sinner for whom Christ was crucified." What he got was,
"Ha, ha, dumb, sub-masculine, pussified homos--none of their theology here!"
I came to Christ, finally, because I realized the worst sinners could come to Jesus and be
saved. Jesus hasn't given me a couple of years to get my act together and stop being weak
and then come down on me with fire, although he could. He's given me grace upon grace,
allowing me to come to him when I knew there was no chance of my being able to live the
Christian life.
I found a lot of help in Wallace's idea that it's okay for me to be a man and stop feeling
guilty for it. I have also found the courage, because of some of the things he's written, to
get in here and write instead of cursing people under my breath . But I think, Wallace, this
skewter
Junior Member
William Wallace
II
Member
William Wallace
II
Member
is not an honest look at human beings and how they've been since Adam. Even though I
agree that men should start being men (and I should, too), and we should all quit whining, I
refuse to close my mind, put on a brown shirt, and start strutting around in the strength of
someone else's leadership, as though I were myself strong. If someone here is strong, let
him show it by building up the weak, and scrubbing some nasty toes. Some pussified,
whining, no-thanks, kick-you-in-the-teeth toes.
And if any one of you causes me or some other weak brother to fall by your strength, you'll
have blood on your hands before Almighty God.
Cell' me has more guts than me and 95% of you, just because he was willing to face off with
Wallace alone when Wallace is obviously the better polemicist.
You know what's sad? I hear echoes of Nietzsche in the "manly man" rhetoric, far more than
Jesus. Jesus loved little children and Zaccheus' pussified, tree-climbing ass; Nietzsche
condemned Christianity as "a religion of weakness."
[This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-08-2001).]
[This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-08-2001).]
D posted 01-08-2001 08:12 PM L£?l Cj] ^
KZA,
i never advocated blind acceptance without the backing of scripture, read again what you
quoted from me. what i was suggesting was some simple consideration for the implications
of a discussion like this, why does it arouse such a reaction from so many of us? maybe
because it's important?
instead, i have to admit that this discussion has been a huge disappointment to me. all i've
seen are clumsy, pseudo-intellectual characterizations of the participants(of which your post
is a prime example) and not a single original insight.
i'm tired of this.
D posted 01-08-2001 10:05 PM L£?l =■
Yes, a man should provide much more than money for his family. And, yes he has a right to
live simply and minimally and devote a great deal of time to his family. But, this is not an
excuse for a man to be less than ambitious or to force his wife to work and carry his half of
the curse in addition to her own (the children). What often happens in young marriages is
that the woman carries half the load and children are postponed because the woman is not
encouraged to think and act like a woman, but is now a breadwinner with her attention
directed away from the home. Also, it provides the man a long season of not carrying the
full weight God has placed upon his shoulders which then lessens his incentive to find a way
to make it all work for good. One of the ways a man shows love is through providing. When
my wife and kids eat, that food is the result of my love. If I hung out with them all day and
they were hungry I would doubt they would feel well loved. True, in our consumer driven
world we could all get by on a lot less. But, trying to obtain as much as possible for the
cause of benefitting others seems like an act of kindness. After all, if a few men don't
provide more than the minimal requirements to live how will ministries be funded and single
moms and kids be assisted?
D posted 01-08-2001 10:11 PM L£?l □
The world is filled with a great number of churches and ministries sensitve to feminine (read
pussified) men. These men can go there. They can read Gary Smalley and James Dobson.
They can go to Promise Keepers. They can hang with Exodus International if they are gay.
They can go to most any Christian bookstore and get men's devotional books with really
moving stories. They can listen to Christian radio and hear men drone about how they feel.
We sit on the other end of the teeter-totter. We don't like those guys, though in Christ we
still love them. We don't want to sing their songs, read their books, or cry with them. We
think the best place for a gay guy may be with straight guys. He may feel odd, because he
is odd. That does not mean that he's not loved. He may just be experiencing male love for
the first time. When my little brothers punched me growing up I did not cry and ask why
they hated me. I would then punch them back knowing that it was our own little secret
language of male affection. Tell your buddy if he got a punch, it might mean he's just a
brother.
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01-08-2001 10:46 PM LEE =0 ^
Do not knock the Puritans kids. The Pilgrims and Puritans are not the same guys. The
Puritans produced some of the godliest Christian community and richest theology in the
history of the church. The poor folks always get a bad rap by folks who have not done their
historical research. One Puritan church actually brought a husband under church discipline
because he was no good in bed, his wife was sick of it, and he was unrepentantly unwilling
to be discipled for the bedroom. I'd have paid to be there.
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01-08-2001 10:47 PM LEE =□
Aztecjohn - thanks. You have a nice throne and we all were waiting with baited breath to
hear from the queen.
xrizxomiz
Member
D posted 01-09-2001 12:58 AM ESEE ^[21
After reading several of the posts I think I have discovered a new system of logic. This
system is grounded in, and finds its source from, the inner-testicular limbic canal (that's the
part of the testical that feels the most pain when you get kicked there).
I am going to call this system of logic "Aner-Logico Syllogistic Reasoning". The word Aner is
the word for "male" in the greek and is used only when an explicit distinction is being made
between those with "ballzacks" and those without. Reasoning this way would go something
like this:
1) A question is posed (or a threat is made, whichever gets us to wherever we're going the
fastest), such as: Am I a manly-man if I tell another manly-man that he's not non-manly
enough?
2) Next, a painful syllogism is presented in order to kill whatever remains of "fuzziness" and
"happiness" within the bowels of all male-whores:
[AMm & ~(~M)] -> IMm
~IMm
~[AMm & ~(~M)]
So, it's not the case that Another Manly-man who is not non-Manly is such because I am not
a Manly-man. I believe in this instance a double negation would imply an affirmative.
Therefore, I show my manliness by affirming the manliness of another man. Wrong. That is
invalid. You've allowed the sweetness of your bowels to be unequally yoked with your
testicular strength.
If you couldn't follow my line of thought, it's probably not your fault. . .Isn't that the way
you prefer it? Just like every other insurmountable obstacle you've faced that's left you with
no limbic system. Just like every other endeavor you've started but never completed. With
my man-driven syllogism, I've only succeeded in showing you that your impotence is just
the result of a depleted sperm count. You just need to trade in your air-tight panty liners for
some free-wheelin' boxers.
I love Jesus cuz He knows how to beat ass. He told us in Matthew 24:36-39 that the days
prior to His coming will be just like the days of Noah, full of eating and drinking, marrying
and giving in marriage. Their will be a general "peace on earth" prior to His coming and
when He shows up He turns that "peace" into wrath for those who rebelled against His
kingdom.
Jesus is creating a world where there is no pain, no suffering, no heartache. Just so He can
take over this world. . .cuz they never expected it ;)
Whatsmore, the Bride gets to watch (participate in?) her King open up a can of bubbly
whoop ass on all the enemies (see Isa 66:23-24, cf. Rev 7:17, and 21:4).
Pro Rege (For the King),
"When Christ ascended to be at the right hand of the Father in glory, it was God's way of
proving that there is not one inch in space and one minute in time that Christ has not said
of it, "I own it, its mine!" - Abraham Kuyper
skewter
Junior Member
D posted 01-09-2001 01:16 AM l£E □
ok now *that* was funny.
"i love jesus cuz he knows how to beat ass" should be on t-shirts.
- J
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01-09-2001 09:23 AM EE =■
We also need some bracelets and a praise song to round out the marketing campaign.
KZA
Junior Member
D posted 01-09-2001 02:09 PM L£E
I think it already is on plenty of Tshirts. I think there was an article in the Stranger about it a
couple of years back.
KZA
Junior Member
D posted 01-09-2001 04:27 PM L£E
[QUOTEjOriginally posted by xrizxomiz:
1) A question is posed (or a threat is made, whichever gets us to wherever we're going the
fastest), such as: Am I a manly-man if I tell another manly-man that he's not non-manly
enough?
2) Next, a painful syllogism is presented in order to kill whatever remains of "fuzziness" and
"happiness" within the bowels of all male-whores:
[AMm & ~(~M)] -> IMm
~IMm
~[AMnn & ~(~M)]
So, it's not the case that Another Manly-man who is not non-Manly is such because I am not
a Manly-man. I believe in this instance a double negation would imply an affirmative.
Therefore, I show my manliness by affirming the manliness of another man. Wrong. That is
invalid.
What you're describing sounds a lot more like Wallace's sycophants who jump in periodically
to repeat something he's already said, with a whole lot less style. As for me, I never had
any interest in posturing as a "manly-man"; I rejected the category. In theory, a manly
man is supposed to follow sundry precepts Wallace takes from the bible. In practice,
observed in this topic, we have a different specimen. In high school, we called them "Jocks."
Jocks and their ilk had their herd of hangers-on, fighting over crumbs and the extra seat in
the Jock prom limo. So here.
hopeful
Member
God Bless Jocks, thugs, and those who like to bloody each other at Pantera concerts. Or
Korn or whatever. Just don't insist that everyone who wishes to follow Jesus must find a
spot at the back of the herd.
Our God is great. Jeremiah, Jacob, and other wussy men find favor with him. Manly men like
Esau and Nimrod (a mighty hunter before the LORD) His soul hates. True, Jehu was a jock.
David probably was to some extent. But then again, he says: "Blessed is he who has regard
for the weak; the Lord delivers him in times of trouble." (Ps 41)
If you are strong, or manly, or good at sports as a Christian, aren't you so for the sake of
the weak?
"Therefore, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in
persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." I wish I was man
enough not to fear insults, weaknesses, and persecutions.
Low sperm count, eh? hmmm. I think the hearty reception of the testicle/homo humor by
the jocks in this topic is a symptom of two things--
A. The Jock, alpha-male thing doesn't work so well after high school. Solution? Buy an old
thunderbird and fix it up. Eat some pork rinds in the solicitude of your own prefab suburban
living room.
B. White Male persecution complex. Well-documented in such movies as "Falling Down" and
"Fight Club." Consumer-driven, cookie-cutter, aisle-9 version of reactionary masculinity to
compensate for a lack of versatility in approaching the world.
Signed,
A crotch-scratching, grunting, non-manly man.
[This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-09-2001).]
D posted 01-09-2001 11:05 PM [_aL3 ^
originally posted by KZA.
"Our God is great. Jeremiah, Jacob, and other wussy men find favor with him. Manly men
like Esau and Nimrod (a mighty hunter before the LORD)His soul hates."
I'm sorry my friend but you have it all backwards.
Esau was the wuss. Esau liked to hunt, he was a good hunter, and his father favored him
because of the good meat he brought home. God despised him, god passed him up and
granted his birthright to Jacob. He was honored by men but despised by the LORD. Esau
traded away his birthright for a bowl of red stew! (Gen 25:30) How foolish was that! He was
driven so much by his stomach that he gave away his most prized posession. What a wuss!
Jacob on the other hand was a manly man. Gen 25:27 says "Jacob was a quiet man, staying
among the tents." The Hebrew word translated quiet here is 'tarn', which is translated
elsewhere as 'perfect' and 'morally complete'. Jacob did not stay at home with mommy. Knit
sweaters, and clean up the tents. The fact that he cooked good food only proves he was
after the LORD'S own heart because loves good grubbin.
And i would guess that if Jacob and Esau went toe to toe Jacob would kick his ass! Why, well
he wrestled with God all night till daybreak and God didn't win untill he resorted to a
supernatural act of jacking up his hip. (Gen 32:24-26) Jacob was also a man of enourmous
strength, he rolled away the stone from a well in Gen 29:10, something that usually
required many shepards. And Jacob had God's blessing. He was a manly man.
therfore, i don't think your argument has much biblical weight. Maybe you should check up
on Nimrod and Jeremiah aswell.
KZA
Junior Member
Xavier
Junior Member
xrizxomiz
Member
D posted 01-10-2001 12:46 AM L£2I
So which is it, Hopeful? Does "manly-man" simply mean "morally complete?" Or does it
mean being able to kick ass and roll big heavy stones? You don't seem to be sure. The fact
that you claim to know Hebrew isn't helping you any.
If it wasn't for your Hebrew, I'd figure you were just stupid. I feel, well, my feelings are a
little hurt. I don't think you respect me enough to read my post seriously, and yet what you
wrote makes no sense at all. You use the term "manly" to mean one thing in the first
paragraph and another in the next. The stuff about Nimrod is only a couple of verses, so I'll
check myself on it here in front of you, okay?
"Cush became the father of Nimrod; he was the first on earth to be a mighty man. He was a
mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, 'Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before
the LORD.'" (Genesis 10)
I think I was saying that Nimrod was a "manly man." Admittedly, the RSV says "Mighty
man," but you'll grant it was close, right?
It goes on to tell us that Nimrod built 7 cities. He was industrious, intelligent, charismatic,
obviously. He also could kick ass--he was a mighty enough hunter before the Lord that they
made up a saying in Israel about him. One commentator says that his "hunting" before the
LORD was another way of saying that he terrified and oppressed other men. The Hebrew
word for his name means "rebel," that is, a rebel before God. If you mean "powerful" or
"macho" when you say manly, Nimrod was your "man." And yet inspired scripture calls him
a rebel against God. I know God destroyed at least two or three of the cities he founded--
Babel, Nineveh, and Resen. So Nimrod works as an example for the point I was making--
manliness, machismo, human industry and strength--it's a joke to God, at best. Do I really
have to quote all the verses that show our frailty, weakness, and depravity as the places at
which God is willing to meet us? Thank God I am not a manly man! Otherwise I would never
be aware of my need.
What's my point? I think you made it for me when you were talking about Esau--what is
highly regarded by men is detestable to God.
It's because we are men--and therefore wicked--that we are so willing to believe that God
loves it when we kick ass and assert our competence. But any strength we have, according
to the flesh or the spirit, is because God is merciful and gracious.
[This message has been edited by KZA (edited 01-10-2001).]
D posted 01-11-2001 12:56 PM [_£! [13
Hiya Mr. World War II,
I think you're very funny (not sure what this has to do with the Gospel).
However, you have strong entertainment promise, have you ever considered stand up ?
For whatever it's worth, i thank you for making me laugh.
Cheers,
Xav
ps: I'll refrain from making fun of you, you're entertaining and never claimed to be a serious
Christian, and I, like you, am in it for the fun. Mocking serious people is a wholly underrated
form of entertainment, mind you.
D posted 01-11-2001 05:18 PM L£31 -O ^
KZA: >What you're describing sounds a lot more like Wallace's sycophants<
. . .sounds scary. Is it related at all to that twitching of the eyes I get after I've been
studying for 8 hours straight?
>who jump in periodically to repeat something he's already said, with a whole lot less style.
<
I try to be original but my style only begets the ordinary and the everyday. I'm just too
secular to compete with the sacredness of others. I guess my home is here on earth with
the other mundane men :(
>As for me, I never had any interest in posturing as a "manly-man"<
Point well taken. I don't think anyone on this list is confused about what your posturing as ;)
>1 rejected the category. <
. . .In practice as well as in thought?
>In theory, a manly man is supposed to follow sundry precepts Wallace takes from the bible.
In practice, observed in this topic, we have a different specimen. In high school, we called
them "Jocks." Jocks and their ilk had their herd of hangers-on, fighting over crumbs and the
extra seat in the Jock prom limo. So here.<
Not sure what a "hangers-on" is? Probably just my desire to read syntactically correct
sentences. If it's anything like "sychophants", then it sounds like I must've got mad-cow
disease from that burger I had today.
BTW, didn't Jesus say something about the dogs eating crumbs off the table. . .
. . .and didn't Paul say something about fighting, running, and beating his body. Sounds
pretty "Jockish" to me. . . you nazty dog you!
>God Bless Jocks, thugs, and those who like to bloody each other at Pantera concerts. Or
Korn or whatever. <
Amen brother. Just don't forget the motherload of all metal bands. . .Slayer!!
>Just don't insist that everyone who wishes to follow Jesus must find a spot at the back of
the herd.<
Me wee lil' brain seems to remember somethin' about the least in the kingdom of heaven will
be. . .1 follow Jesus' heard cuz I want to lead (How's that for a pithy lil' sayin'?)
>Low sperm count, eh? hmmm. I think the hearty reception of the testicle/homo humor by
the jocks in this topic is a symptom of two things--
A. The Jock, alpha-male thing doesn't work so well after high school. Solution? Buy an old
thunderbird and fix it up. Eat some pork rinds in the solicitude of your own prefab suburban
living room.
B. White Male persecution complex. Well-documented in such movies as "Falling Down" and
"Fight Club." Consumer-driven, cookie-cutter, aisle-9 version of reactionary masculinity to
compensate for a lack of versatility in approaching the world. <
I would add one more. Well, maybe not. I think you've pretty much exhausted all the
possibile symptoms for "teste/homo humor". I think I'm forced to go with 'B'.
1. I do feel very persecuted by white males, especially when they ware all those tattoos,
have a hundred peircings, and use "dude" like a verb/noun/adjective/etc. ;)
2. Fight Club is my life's theme
3. I do plan on shopping at IKEA as soon as I get my driver's liscense and my mom starts
giving me my allowance again
4. What's wrong with cookie-cutters?
5. Aisle-9? Don't you mean Babylon 5? Dude, you are trippin' dog. . .
I only react against anti-masculinity which is a reaction against masculinity. Sorry bra, but I
think I'm going to have to give you the Caeserian thumbs-down on this one. Your anti-man
quasi-witty prose is just more food for the lion's mouth.
pinky
Junior Member
hopeful
Member
winterbourne
Junior Member
>Signed,
A crotch-scratching, grunting, non-manly man.<
Just be sure not to arouse that spiritual vagina of yours.
Love and War,
xriz
[This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by xrizxomiz (edited 01-11-2001).]
D posted 01-12-2001 12:15 AM L}21 3^
xris, braaaa ! ! ! ! buddy! where you bin brotha! s'all'm sayin! My hearts aches like the soles of
my feet, souled out to the slavery of everyday life, soulless and numbed like my pink
dripping eye!! Oh wretched life, how thy frisbee of pain whistles towards my head! Catch it
xris before my blind eyes open on dumb hands!! Save me from german carnivals with there
too high shorts, and too tight leggins with boots too brown and dirty to walk the roads
without scorn from french twitting fiends!!!!
Shoutout to my bra xris, peace!
D posted 01-15-2001 12:06 PM L£3 3^
KZA,
Why exactly do you think Jacob was a wuss? My point may have not been crystal clear, but
basically Jacob was not wuss. I said what i did about the Hebrew because the translation
seems to make Jacob out to be a mamas boy who sits at home and knits with mom,
grandma, and the rest of the girls. A common misconception that i felt needed clarification
considering the fact you think he was a wuss.
"So Does manly man simply mean morally complete? Or does it mean being able to kick ass
and roll big heavy stones?"
It means both.
A manly man is not an ass-hole jock, but he isn't a whining wuss either. The idea that every
man has to be able to bench press 300lbs to be manly is also absurd. The 105 lb. close-
hanger of a man need not press like Ray Lewis of the Baltimore Ravens. But there is no
reason that a 105 lb weakling can't hold his own and be a man instead of cowardly putting
his tail between his legs and crying foul when he should stand up and be a man.
My beef with you is you called one of the patriarchs a wuss, which to me makes absolutely
no sense and makes me wonder about you.
[This message has been edited by hopeful (edited 01-15-2001).]
D posted 01-15-2001 03:39 PM L£?l O 3^
I was pointed to this discussion by a friend and must admit that I^ve now spent the better
part of a day reading and re-reading these posts. At the same time enthralled and offended
(which was probably the point). On one hand I applaud the call to arms presented here, for
too long young Christian men such as myself have been spoon-fed a doctrine of mediocrity
and apathy. We are taught that it^s ok to be lukewarm in our faith because after all to be
non-offensive is our goal. I^m tired of being told that laziness in the pursuit of holiness is
ok and that my weakness should be coddled and sheltered rather than exposed to the light.
For these reasons I applaud what WWII is attempting.
My problem with all of this is in the delivery of the address. In the biblical instruction on how
we are to admonish one another I fail to see abuse listed as a correct means. I understand
that WWII posts are meant to be inflammatory and controversial. However, are we not
supposed to be known by our love for one another? I realize that love is not always warnn-
fuzzies or good feelings. A true brother is not one who will coddle your weaknesses but one
who will hold your feet to the fire. But at the same time our love is to be marked by
gentleness and meekness^not abuse, ridicule and name-calling. So I guess I would hope
that this new revolution would be one marked by men pursuing hard after holiness and that
their mark would be strength of righteousness and gentleness of spirit. Not just chest
pounding machismo and false bravado.
TITUS: 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
2nd timothy 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach,
patient,
2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them
repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive
by him at his will.
laimo24 □ pos ted 01-16-2001 10:48 pm LaH O
Junior Member
quote:
Originally posted by theslowlearner:
Has anyone speculated that Mr. Wallace may actually be a woman
incognito, trying to get a message to the castrati of the world.
Also, is pussification a reversible disorder? As far as I know
emasculation is irreversible.
Dude, This is the funniest post on the list so far. You are insightful. Thanks for the cool
thoughts.
hopeful
D posted 01-17-2001 12:30 AM
‘JH
Member
kza?
hopeful
Member
D posted 01-17-2001 11:14 PM
LJ21
According to the federal government 18 Billion dollars was paid in child support last year.
This is the amount that was PAID. Imagine the amount that went unpaid. I bet it was
problably more than the amount paid.
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 01-18-2001 04:49 PM LsLS O
I have decided to read the dictionary and come up with new words that no one knows so
that I can say things without people getting their undies in a bind. I am also suggesting that
since we are building a new nation that we need our own language. The following are some
suggestions and I would encourage your input to help create this language that we will now
call Wallacisms:
pussified - any man who has lost his rocks and completed the process of remaining
biologically male but become female in all other ways
male lesbian - any man who thinks and acts like a woman because he thinks that makes him
a better person
legion - the countless number of men who have become male lesbians
feman - a woman who thinks and acts like a man because she believes it makes her equal to
men
whacker - a man who is a porno freak and chronic masturbator
serial whacker - a man who uses women for sex and uses their bodies instead of his hand for
his masturbation
manly man - any regenerate man who loves God and his neighbor and demonstrates it with
grace guided practical living and rigorous theology
half a man - any man who takes a wife and does not serve as the financial and spiritual head
of his home but believes the relationship is 50/50 and she should make half the money and
do half of his job at home
pitch a tent club - men who allow their wives to nag them so incessantly that they want to
sleep on the roof of their own home
a Bundy - any man who sees women as machines with parts and stalks them
rock free - any man who attends a church with a woman pastor
mixed nuts - any man who claims Christ but is actively involved in homosexual activity
kindling - any man who does not repent of his sin and receive God's grace in Christ
homoerotic huddle - any men's group where the men cry inordantly and hug each other with
deep affection
feminism - the enemy of every man, every woman, every child, and God Almighty
odd squad - the collection of people who comprise a singles ministry
knuckleheadology - the seemingly profound but completely insane thinking that tends to fill
the head of single young men who are avoiding taking a wife and having children
rocks - the courage a man must have to be a manly man
the jar - that place where unmanly men store the rocks that they never wear
Clickers - lazy men who lay on the couch and watch too much television
wandering willy - any man who commits adultery on his wife
bibliophobe - any man who argues passionately for his point without ever using Scripture but
likes to toss Jesus name around a lot
artistesticularless - men who expect women to take care of them because they play guitar or
paint
Marty Stewart - any man who stays at home with his kids while his wife goes off to work to
provide for his family
King & Lord - Jesus
Adamite - any man who lets his wife make Satan the head of their home while he sits quiet,
passive, and submissively
Charlie Chump - any man who walks out on his own children
Larry Limp - any man who refuses to serve his wife sexually in such a way as to make the
Song of Songs sing again
momma's boy - any man who continually nestles on his momma's chest and wants a wife
who will be his momma
The Youth Pastor Yank - any man who expects his church to lead his kids to Christ and teach
them about the Bible
home - the most sacred part of a wife's anatomy
Minni Me - a man's penis
Dobsonian - anything with words like self-esteem, self-love, self-actualization and the like
instead of manly words like pride
henhouse - any church that is not governed solely by qualified men
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 01-18-2001).]
BigEddie □ p 0Sted 01 - 18-2001 05:55 pm UEH
Junior Member
Kinda adds a new meaning to the phrase "Honey, I'm home!"
Brilliantly done WWII...but I'm frustrated at why it came to be...
Erocka N. Rolla
Junior Member
D posted 01-18-2001 06:18 PM [jHI □
Absolutely frickin' gorgeous.
I'm gonna use those forthwith. Serial whackers (and I know several "Christian" ones),
beware.
KZA
Junior Member
D posted 01-19-2001 05:14 AM t2LE
My beef with you is you called one of the patriarchs a wuss, which to me makes absolutely
no sense and makes me wonder about you.
[This message has been edited by hopeful (edited 01-15-2001). ][/B] [/QUOTE]
Wonder away. I'm not the first person who's called the guy that.
Jacob showed wussy traits and manly traits, either way you want to define manly/wussy--if
manly means "godly" or if manly means "macho." He wrestles God, and then he puts his
wife and kids out in danger and hangs back. Very cowardly. He freaked out when his sons
massacred Hamor and Shechem's whole clan, which was understandable, but he didn't care
a whole lot about his violated daughter. Not exactly manly. And jacob wasn't always godly
in any sense of the word.
Jacob is also one of my favorite people in the bible. i relate to him. he's quite capable of
being a coward, of cheating and stealing and running from a fight. He's tricky. But god is
very gracious to him--that's why his story is so good.
KZA
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
If you are 105 pounds, you will never make it as a tough man. You will never be able to
swagger around, confident in your manliness; you probably won't be that well endowed;
and if some guy who's tough and a jerk starts flirting with your girl, what are you really
going to do about it? Either you'll lift a lot of weights and buy a big car to try to
compensate, or you'll accept your weakness as how God made you and commit yourself to
him. God doesn't despise the weak. This is not to say being weak is a virtue in itself
(because you can always covet if you can't go out and take), or that a weak man can't be
honorable, only that not everyone can be manly in the worldly sense of the word. And I
think we should be brothers to those who are not.
D posted 01-19-2001 05:47 AM KE
Not sure what a "hangers-on" is? Probably just my desire to read syntactically correct
sentences. If it's anything like "sychophants", then it sounds like I must've got mad-cow
disease from that burger I had today.
I can't believe I spent time reading your syllogism, following your logic, and you couldn't
even bother to figure out what "sycophant" means!? I mean, there's no dictionary for logic,
but with a word all you have to do is open to the appropriate letter.
But anyway, I didn't mean you so much as the others, but i suppose you could fall into the
category if you really want. Since when, I wonder, does being a sycophant (which means,
roughly, a suck-up, a follower, someone who goes around trumpeting someone else's ideas)
make you a man? Like, as in, you (plural) don't have the brain to put your finger on the
"pussification" process until Wallace points it out, nor the spine to complain until Wallace
paves the way--but now that he's done it, you all have a ton of courage to trample
everyone on the site who disagrees. In what world is this "manliness?" Aha. ..in a fallen
world, where people follow without really analyzing what they're following.
I was personally hurt by the "spiritual vagina" reference, but then I found out that a whole
bunch of women objected to the fact that their sex was being used as a slur, the weird thing
is, I remember reading augustine's City of God, where he has to spend a considerable
amount of time questioning whether at the resurrection, when the flesh becomes
incorruptible, women will lose their femininity and become full fledged men. Maybe this is
something we need to hash out in this section, since "spiritual vaginas" are weak and
contemptible, and "spiritual penises" I assume, are pleasing and upright before the Lord.
The really weird thing to me is how much I've always raged to my friends about the various
feminist English professors I've had to put up with. I think men should lead. But why should
men patronize? What intelligent woman wants to be subject to someone who doesn't
respect her? And God help you if you're going to lead your family and you swallow
everything you read about being a man uncritically.
D posted 01-19-2001 12:00 PM SSI =□
"The one who is slack in his work is brother to him who destroys."
Pro. 18:9
"Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins"
Jam. 4:17
"The sin of respectable people is seen in their flight from responsibily"
Dietrich Bonhoffer
That is a view of sin that is completely absent in our culture and church.
"He is a good person, he doesn't smoke, or drink or cuss or fight or rape or murder"
What about when he is 18 years old and he will not prepare himself to be a father, church
emoOl
Junior Member
William Wallace
II
Member
elder, or a husband?
"Well, boys will be boys, right©"
"At least he is not like one of those sinners that goes to bars and swears"
Men flee from responsibility because of lack of masculinity. Masculinity is despised by men
because they are hedonists and women because they are feminists. It this a vile sin just as
rape and murder? Yes it is.
"That sin which you would save from slaughter will slaughter you"
C.H. Spurgeon
D posted 01-19-2001 02:10 PM L£2] □
"knuckleheadology - the seemingly profound but completely insane thinking that tends to fill
the head of single young men who are avoiding taking a wife and having children"
Does this mean that not taking a wife is wrong; that a man's duty is to get married and have
children? I need some clarification on this.
D posted 01-19-2001 02:51 PM L£2I =□
Proverbs 18:22 "He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord."
The eastern concept of marriage that is dominant throughout the Old Testament is one in
which the man prepares himself to be a husband and father, and then pursues a woman's
father to win the approval to court her as his bride. The father of the bride is central to
marriage and the young woman is supposed to respectfully submit to her father and he is to
protect her chastity and guard her against potentially undesireable suitors like the young
men who take girls to prom and put their hands down their dress, or worse still young men
who prowl at singles groups hoping to mash on some young woman like a desperate junior
high boy in heat.
Therefore, it is imperative that a young woman have either her father or another man
occupy that role of headship in her life to aid in the selection of her husband. If her father is
absent or unsuited, it would be best for young women to invite an older man (i.e. a church
elder, respectful man in their church, a believing close male relative etc.) to serve in that
regard out of loving concern for her. Paul illustrated this principle with the topic of
headcoverings in Corinthians wherein he essentially stated that women should always be
under submission (first of their father and then of their husband) and demonstrate their
submission in the culturally appropriate sign of such a submissive spirit with the wearing of
a head covering. This transference of headship is symbolized in the Christian tradition of a
father walking a woman down the aisle and then literally giving her away and transferring
his headship to her husband.
Therefore, a man cannot be a limp wristed coward waiting for a good woman to pursue him.
He must not also casually date Christian women test-driving them to find one he really
wants to buy. He should be prepared, responsible, forthright, and honorable.
He must begin by being qualified to take a wife. The following list should help to begin the
introspective process for single men of considering whether they are ready to take a wife
and if not how much work they have to do.
1. Are you a Christian who desires a Christian wife (II Corinthians 6:14)?
2. Do you work hard and make enough money to take care of a wife and child (I Timothy
5:8)?
3. Will you love the wife you take as Christ loves her (Ephesians 5:22-33)?
4. Will you accept the responsibility of headship and leadership of your wife and children
(Colossians 3:18-21)?
5. Do you know your Bible well enough to serve as a pastor to your family and answer your
wife's theological questions (I Corinthians 14:35)?
6. Do have sufficient self-control to be gentle and tender with a woman (I Peter 3:7)?
7. Do you have self control in regards to lusting after other women (Matthew 5:27-30)?
William Wallace
II
Member
8. Will you be a one-woman man (I Timothy 3:2)?
9. Will you give your body to your wife to explore and enjoy sexually, in sum will you be any
good in bed (I Corinthians 7:1-7)?
10. Will you keep your covenant to your wife for the duration of your life (I Corinthians 7 : 10-
11 )?
11. Are you ready to in every way sever the ties that bind you to your mom and dad
(Genesis 2:24)?
12. Do you know that you do need a wife (Genessis 2:18)?
13. Do you want to be a dad with an exemplary family (I Timothy 3:5,12; Titus 1:6)?
14. Have you kept your appearance so you look good (Song of Songs 5:10)?
15. Will you enjoy your wife (Ecclesiastes 9:9)?
16. Do you like breasts (Proverbs 5:19)?
17. Are you actively involved in a solid local church and submitting to the elders/pastors
there (Hebrews 13:17)?
18. Do you humbly submit to godly older men (I Peter 5:5)?
19. Do you endure discipline and hardship with courage and faith (Hebrews 12:7-11)?
20. Are you self-controlled (Titus 2:6)?
21. Do you embrace your youth as an opportunity to set an example to others of the power
of God in a yielded life (I Timothy 4:12).
22. Do you watch your life and doctrine closely (I Timothy 4:16)?
23. Most importantly, do you gladly submit to Christ's complete authority over all of your life
(I Corinthians 11:3)?
In sum, husbands are told to love their wives, and wives are told to submit to and respect
their husbands. The men must not love as psychologists tell them, but instead as Scripture
does in some of the ways listed above. And, a man needs to tell a woman that his love is
heartfelt, as well as shown practically in these ways. If a man does these things out of the
power of God's grace alone then most every woman who has the Spirit of God within her
submits and respects that man.
Men, here is a secret, if you want a woman to be attracted to you, you must be attractive. If
you want a woman to respect you, you must be the kind of man she can be proud of and
speak highly of. In the Song of Songs the bride says "no wonder the maidens adore you."
She knew that she got a good man, the kind that all the other women had admired and
hoped for. Today, the problem is that there are too few men of nobility and desirability
which forces the women in our churches to remain single, become independent and
feministic (even if ever so slightly) and either settle for some half-a-man, or remain single
indefinitely. It all rides or falls with the men.
And, once a man is ready for a bride, he should then select a woman he has gotten to know
in a causal way and request permission from her father (or other head) to court her as a
potential spouse.
More later...
D posted 01-19-2001 02:52 PM L$3I 113
Now for the second half of the equation, what a man should seek in a wife.
1. Seek a woman who is a Christian similarly devoted to God as you (II Corinthians 6:14).
2. Seek a woman who fears God (Proverbs 31:30).
3. Seek a woman desires to be sexually liberated and give her body to you to enjoy (I
Corinthians 7:1-5).
4. Seek a woman you are sexually attracted to (Proverbs 5:15-19).
5. Seek a woman whose conduct speaks more loudly than her tongue (I Peter 3:1-6).
6. Seek a woman who is suited to be your helper (Genesis 2:18).
7. Seek a woman with a submissive spirit (Ephesians 5:22-24).
8. Seek a woman who is good with handling finances (Proverbs 31:10-31).
9. Seek a woman who will be a good mother (Proverbs 29:15).
10. Seek a woman who's desires are homeward (Proverbs 14:11, Titus 2:4-5).
11. Seek a woman who is kindhearted (Proverbs 11:16).
William Wallace
II
Member
12. Seek a woman who is not a quarrelsome nag (Proverbs 21:9).
13. Seek a woman of noble character with a strong work ethic (Proverbs 31:10-31).
14. Seek a woman who is not flirtatious and flattering to other men (Proverbs 5:1-6).
15. Seek a woman who likes to dance naked before you (Song of Songs 6:13b-7:9).
16. Seek a woman who likes to be kissed by you (Song of Songs 1:1).
17. Seek a woman whose scent is sweetly erotic (Song of Songs 1 : 12).
18. Seek a woman who likes you to rest your head between her breasts (Song of Songs
1:13).
19. Seek a woman who will enjoy performing oral sex on you (Song of Songs 2:3).
20. Seek a woman who wants you to perform oral sex on her (Song of Songs 4:16-5:1).
21. Seek a woman who knows how to speak to you like a manly man (Song of Songs 5:10-
16).
22. Seek a woman who is your friend (Song of Songs 5:16).
23. Seek a woman who can guide all her sexual desires solely to you and remain faithful
(Song of Songs 4:12).
24. Seek a woman who has all her teeth (Song of Songs 6:6).
D posted 01-19-2001 02:54 PM =B
I Corinthians 7. Buckle up. Here we go.
The Corinthian church is jacked - getting drunk at communion, suing each other, affirming
homosexuality, speaking in tongues like nutjobs, and one guy is even sleeping with his
mom/mom-in-law and no one is the least bit disturbed. The entire letter Paul writes is in
response to some questions they had sent to him. This makes it a bit tough for us to
interpret since we have to construct from the answer what exactly the question was. But,
chapter 7 of I Corinthians seems very clear in speaking about marital and sexual issues.
Paul tells us that it is good for a man to be unmarried. But, Paul concedes that because of
the hot running sex drive of many that marriage is the only thing that will keep the from
sin. In these sections he seems to be addressing people who have already been very
sexually active, have now come to Christ and don't think they'll be able to control
themselves even for a short season.
Paul then speaks to virgins in verse 25 and suggests that these people who are single and
have demonstrated sexual self-control would be benefitted from considering remaining
unmarried because of the great persecution in that day. Paul then goes on to say that to be
married under the crisis of that day would cause one to face even greater hardship in being
devoted to Christ.
I would strongly suggest, then, that only under such rare circumstances should someone
remain unmarried. It makes sense to try and remain single if you live in a place like Sudan
or Turkey where being a courageous evangelist would most definitely bring you to be
murdered for your faith. If you had a wife and children in some countries today they would
be raped and you would be killed. Therefore, if you claim to be called to singleness then you
are also called to frontline life and death ministry. This is the model of Paul's life. He was
likely married, and it seems either his wife had died or left him upon his conversion and he
remained single because of his ministry. Paul was beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, nearly
starved to death and left for dead on numerous occassions. Under such circumstances it
was good he did not have a wife and kids. Therefore, if you claim to be single we should see
you living the most committed life to Christ of any child of God and expect you to be
murdered. In the meantime your time and money should go directly to the cause of the
gospel. If you tithe poorly, serve minimally, play lots of video games, consume hours of
television and masturbate a lot like the average 20-something Christian male I would
suggest you are not called to singleness, but you are calling yourself to selfishness. I am
absolutely sick and tired of hearing guys tell me they are called to be single and then piss
their life away doing nothing of significance and then claiming that they are like Jesus and
Paul. Jesus, like Paul, died and knew he would so having a family would have been
irresponsible. Also, it would have been a really tough gig for Jesus to find a woman to be
equally yoked to since he was God.
emoOl
Junior Member
Jwalk
Junior Member
William Wallace
II
Member
In Genesis, before sin enters the world, the man is told it is not good for him to be alone.
So, God created the woman to be of help to him in his ministry. Under most circumstances
men are better able to serve the gospel with a wife since she is differently gifted and called
to empower and join with the man for God's glory. Most of the problems in our church and
world relate to sexuality, selfishness, marriage, and childbearing and childrearing. A single
guy is going to have a very limited ministry on these things, whereas a married man can
better minister to men, women, and children while serving as a model.
Lastly, the Scripture is clear that part of our ministry is to be fruitful and multiply. That not
only are we to be selfish and consider our ministry, but to raise up generations of servants
of the gospel to ensure that the work outlives us. Therefore, to view children as a burden to
the work of the gospel is erroneous. Aren't you glad the apostle Paul, Augustine, Luther,
Calvin, Spurgeon and the like had dads not devoted to celibacy?
D posted 01-19-2001 03:11 PM LSlZl □
Thanks for the Corithians bit. That is what I was thinking about when I read your new word.
I happen to be the person who burns with passion, who plans on getting married. Plus I
beleive that any Christian man that wants to stay single is messed up in the head, but that
is just my personal opinion. But I was wondering if you were calling all the men who remain
celibant complete idiots to the Word of God. Do they not deserve the Manly Man award or
something like that. Please excuse my grammar if I screw up. I kinda hate the English
language. I prefer speaking in tounges b/c anything that comes out of your mouth God
understands(sorry for the really crappy joke there).
Here is my only self created word:
Kack-to hit someone
i.e. Boy I'm going to kack you upside the head.
Okay maybe that sucks. I'll just stop now.
[This message has been edited by emoOl (edited 01-19-2001).]
D posted 01-20-2001 09:01 AM [j~2l
So Wallace, What do us guys who are burning with passion and preparing for marriage do in
the meantime? You know passion is kind of hard to control. There is a fine line between
dreaming and whacking.
BTW I am glad that you have opened this issue up and are so straightforward and blunt
about it. Most Christian people can't deal with it but these things have got to be addressed
D posted 01-20-2001 01:34 PM L£3 O
Good question.
One, don't spend all your time with single people. Get some good married couple friends to
observe and dialogue with. This is one of the biggest problems with segmented ministry in
churches, married and unmarried people are separated.
Two, spend some considerable time in Scripture about marital matters so that you know
why, how, and what a wife and children are for. A good place to start may be in the Song of
Songs, Ecclesiastes, and Proverbs.
Three, some good books are helpful. On male sexuality I'd recommend "Fidelity" by Douglas
Wilson. On male headship I'd suggest "Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood" by John
Piper. "The War on Boys" and "Fatherless In America" are great works by non-Christians.
Four, be in a good solid church with qualified male elders who can have frank biblical
discussions about male issues without blushing.
davidvik
Junior Member
D posted 01-20-2001 02:05 PM L£2I =□
Another book on male headship that I'd recommend is Men & Women: Equal Yet Different by
Alexander Strauch
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
All times are PT (US)
Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
POST REPLY
Hop to:
General
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 8.html
|fg|j
1 captures
28 Jan 01 - 28 Jan 01
v^idrash 1 A R s
-S UBBFrienri: Fmail This Page tn Someone!
fo Midrash
bfe General
I bfo 1 Pussified Nation (Page 8)
POST NEW TOPIC
profile | register | preferences | facj | search
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author
Topic: Pussified Nation
BigEddie
Junior Member
□ posted 01-20-2001 02:53 PM !_£?]
quote:
Originally posted by William Wallace II:
Four, be in a good solid church with qualified male elders who can have frank biblical
discussions about male issues without blushing.
THAT'S easier said than done. Where were you when I was being counseled about my sexuality by men who
couldn't say the word penis?
[This message has been edited by BigEddie (edited 01-20-2001).]
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 01-21-2001 03:03 AM □ Wf
It just came to me!
I figured out a solution to the delema raised earlier about how can we establish a way of rites of passage into
manhood.
I live in the men's community house at Marshill.
Me and a dear brother of mine who is my roommate just had a little dispute. He was displeased with the way I
confront him like I am his father. I come off as rude and prideful and just barking out orders. He didn't
appreciate that, so, he asked me to say what I am saying in a less arogant way. My response to him was, no.
So we talked further to try to come to some place clarity on this issue. I asked how he will react when his wife
or kids talk to him harshly. I explained to him that I was not doing this so that he would submit to me like my
wife but to force him to step up to me if he thinks I need to be rebuked.
We came up with a brillian plan to turn to when this system breaks down and all communication is lost. Instead
of throwing out the system we chose to modify it.
We made a court of appeals to all confrontation. Two pair of boxing gloves.
I am thorougly convinced that my dear brother will be ten times more qualified to go to the cross for a family
after living under these types of circumstances. I plan to try to implement this new structure on the entire
community house that I live in. I seriously doubt I can achieve this with out divine intervention but this is my
hearts desire. Your prayers would be much appreciated.
If this type of accountability were present in this house there would be no way a boy could leave here still a boy.
The mens community would be the place to bring a boy into being a man.
(Squatting Bear: Tell me what you think)
Of course I would need to implement more Scripturally structured discipleship methods to prepare men for other
types of duties God calls men to. But this type confrontation would make it very difficult for a man to remain in
the darkness and to cling to his sins of being childish.
Another thing is that I am getting so angry about the bullshit that goes on around because of men avoiding
responsibility. I visit single mothers every week whose pussified babies daddies are off living for themselves
and I get absolutly enraged. It seems to me that I will be in serious trouble if I don't find a healthy outlet.
If you are interested in putting on a pair of boxing gloves and having a good healthy fight please email me at
reformation2k@hotmail.com
thank you,
Calvin
solideogloria
William
Wallace II
Member
Squatting
Bear
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
Danger Kitty
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
William
Wallace II
Member
D posted 01-21-2001 09:19 AM ^13 O
I grew up in the ghetto and learned to fight for self preservation and protection of my four younger siblings.
After coming to Christ I realized that jacking people was likely not a high Christian art (though I am beginning
to reconsider that entirely). I also moved into a men's community living home where we had many male
lesbians who had no authority over them and would squawk when confronted. So, we bought gloves, headgear,
and mouthpieces and began our own redeemed Fight Club. War turned out to be much speedier than
negotiation, and I always had increased respect for the puny guys who had the courage to take their beating
before being launched into the third heaven.
D posted 01-21-2001 01:12 PM |j31
ReformUrAss,
This is definately a step in the right direction. My understanding of the passage rite is that it is an irrevocable
crossing over/coming out of boyhood to manhood; this obviously requires community of family recognition of
this transition which IDEALLY should happen sometime around puberty (bar mitzvah for example). Your
community house is occupied by post-pubescent males tho, and if they're pussified, beating the pussy out of
them sounds like not only good sport but loads of fun. Honestly, whenever I encounter pussified males, my first
inclination is to physically beat the crap out of them, but without a proper time and place to do this, I could go
to jail on assault charges and not be able to support my wife.
Perhaps if these "boxing" sessions were enacted, it should be done with a signed waiver to prevent legal
backfirings.
Let me know if I can help (collaborators@hotmail.com). You've got some good ideas. Wail away and let the war
on pussification begin!!!!!
□ posted 01-21-2001 05:21 PM LO -O
Thanks for the feedback Squatting Bear, keep those prayers coming for my house.
I will be periodically dropping Scripture that burdens my heart about males who are less than men.
I Corintians 16: 13
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, QUIT YE LIKE MEN, be strong. (KJV)
Be on your gaurd; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. (NIV)
0 posted 01-21-2001 06:17 PM Ls)31
Hey Ass, if you're such a Manly Man why aren't YOU running the house? You talk too big.
D posted 01-22-2001 08:14 AM O
careful pussy cat.
If I am so arrogant then explain to me why. I am not afraid to be humbled. The only people who have
confronted me on being arrogant have been doing so to draw attention away from their own complacency. If
you keep calling me arrogant when I am not, you should be careful because I might not listen when I really am
being arrogant.
I never want to hear another man tell me that the reason he won't repent is because the isn't being asked nice
enough.
About me leading the house.
I have been praying about it. I do have another ministry I run and numerous other duties that I need not
mention. But thanks for the encouragement. Glad to see you exercising your spiritual gift.
Q posted 01-22-2001 09:11 AM ls)31 □
Danger Kitty. Welcome to the thread.
taggert
Junior Member
Wax
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
the Hulk
Junior Member
While you are certainly not obligated, I would make one request of you. Please tell us your story. I smell a tinge
of bitterness from personal experience and have a suspicion that it might be beneficial for people to hear your
story of the guy and what exactly happened. If you are unwilling, then at least thank you for considering.
D posted 01-22-2001 09:53 AM LO] 'HZ?
rock on! Now we can like totally revise the Christian order of accountabilty, dude! Screw goin to the brother you
got a problem with and speaking to em, then taking one or two others, then bringin him before the church for
repentence or kickin' out from the body. That's too lengthy, man, wastes too much time, just beat the ever-
loving shit out of em!
What a brillian plan to turn to when this system breaks down and all communication is lost. Instead of throwin
out the scripture, we'll choose to modify it.
Hell, let's get that revisioin in scripture. We can call it the RRV ("revised reformurass version")!!! Nothin soundly
rephutes sin and bad theology like a good wallopin'.
Cool, like next time my little woman needs rebuked, and the system breaks down, I'll just put on the boxing
glove...
□ posted 01-22-2001 10:07 AM Lit?]
Wow, Mr. UAss!
"The only people who have confronted me on being arrogant have been doing so to draw attention away from
their own complacency."
You're right, you sure aren't arrogant! I think that your Church leadership should definitely make you an Elder. I
mean how fortunate for your local body to have someone as perfect and theologically sound as you are.
Your Church is very Lucky!
D posted 01-22-2001 10:16 AM
Thank you Wax.
Maybe I will let you sit at my right hand when I come into my kingdom.
Brother Tag,
I know everything sounds peachy keen right now but we have to think how women might respond to this type
discipleship going on in their church. We also must consider that there are some men out there who would be
unwilling parties in such a accountability system. Believe it or not there are some men out there who do not
desire to be made strong enough to lead God's church through the refiners fire. Some men are still under the
allusion that when they get married they will not have to under go bearing great burdens for their family. Such
men would think it insane to try to prepare early on for their future responsibility through rigourus discipline. So
we will problibly have to confine these methods to willing young men who hunger and thrist for God's glory.
□ posted 01-22-2001 10:24 AM [j31
Hulk am here to tok.
Hulk not much like tok. Hulk like to SMASH! But always smashing keyboard am making puny Banner savings
account empty.
So Hulk will tok... for now. Hulk toks with fingers, go tap tap tap on keeboard and make words.
Hulk like Reformass. Reformass know what him am talking about. Hulk not know Hulk was "in sin".
BUT Superman beat Hulk in fight. Hulk try to smash, but Superman keep flying around out of reach. Sneaky.
Superman say that God "not like Hulk smashing things". Now, since he beat Hulk in physikal fight, Superman
am right.
But Hulk am working out. Hulk will fight Superman round 2 and smash him! Then Hulk will be right again and it
am NOT sin. Heh heh.
zugbot
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
the Hulk
Junior Member
Puny Banner say Hulk has dumb logic. Him say silly things like "Nietchze" and "might make right" am wrong.
But puny Banner is weak, which means him am stupid. Hulk will smash puny Banner and make him shut up.
Hulk know physikal prowess = good theolugy.
But Banner never around when Hulk is... hmmm...
□ posted 01-22-2001 12:34 PM l£E ^
Hulk -- I don't know where I fall exactly on the Hulk/Banner spectrum of conflict resolution, but just wanted to
say that that was a nice piece of writing.
D posted 01-22-2001 01:05 PM LS31 □
beautiful Hulk.
But I think you misunderstood the reason why I want to implementing the boxing method. The boxing method is
not there to work out all our problems. The boxing method is to fix a break down in the confrontational
accountability system. So instead of going back to slapping each other on the butt all the time we can remain
confronting each others sin with courage.
What is the important issue is being able to confront a brother in his errors without worrying about bruising his
fragile little self-image.
No more talking about the boxing. What do you have to say about strict, aggressive, shine the light on your
darkness, accountability between Christian men?
It sure is a hassel trying to become a heretic. I don't get why anyone would want to put up with all this bitching
just to lead a church apostate.
By the way if you know me in person you understand that I don't think I am somekind of elder in this church.
The Midrash is great for someone like me without authority to speak up.
D posted 01-22-2001 03:09 PM l£?I ^
Banner here.
I just want to apologize for The Hulk's outburst earlier. It's just that sometimes while reading the midrash I get
angry, and-- well, let's just say you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Like that post earlier, it really got to me,
and my... uh, oh, my heart starts pounding in my chest, like right now... and I start to... oh, Lord in Heaven,
not NOW... my head throbs and I start to- start to- UUHHGGGNHHH! ! ! Help, I can't
stop...it...poifwajeioioi;wwwvgsL:KSJDNFIvbjads;IKfbjl;kdsjkbhlfsdnjbKNMBALKnjfk;IA
HRSDgoiuwprhjg;oimnSKVBNM.knxzcvbkjl;xzhcvboiushf;oifszjAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH! ! !!!!!!
Hulk am here! Puny Banner always run away when he get angRy. But Hulk no run away. Hulk is stroNgest one
there is!
Hulk is mad at pEople on board. Some people whine like little pussycats. Hulk not like pussycats. They break so
easy and mewl all night long.
Hulk like big drooling dogs who like play by clamping onto arm and not letting go. That am so adorible...
Hulk NOT like those crying, big baby huddle pRomise keEpers either. They use those stuPid syKologists who say
something WRONG with Hulk. Even Puny BANNER got out of that silly group, so you know it am dumb.
HAH! EVen Banner is PUNY, but is not PUSSY. He am now married with wife, and is strong Christian man (but
Hulk is stronger!) Hulk not NEED wife; Hulk like man in Korintheans who better not to marry. This partly
because gamma radiation sort of killed Hulk's urges.
That, and for some reason Hulk's pants am always too tight... same size as puny Banner's pants... hmmm...
OtHer people think WaLLace two is all litteral and no sarkasm, and then they try to COPY him like... like Zeroxes
machine... but they go too far. Hulk angry at them TOO! They no better than pussycats. They are vicious like
Abomination— that green, scaly-eared gamma-power commie who WANT to be like Hulk, but does poor
imitation.
Hulk will be at MANLY MAN on February 3. For who is manlier than HULK???
William
Wallace II
Member
Squatting
Bear
Junior Member
Danger Kitty
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
Schaeffer
Junior Member
NO ONE!!!
Wallace good man. Hulk like. First BANNER trusts Wallace, so (of course) Hulk get mad and almost SMASH
Wallace... but then Hulk read ALL of Wallace posts and WallAce make much seNse.
Banner never make sense... use big words hurt Hulk's head...
Wallace not perfect, and Hulk not like ALL his responses, but Wallace am fallible. Still say good stuff majority of
time. Comforting to know him am not PERFECT. WHy, u ask? Lean close and Hulk tell you BIG secret... even
Hulk am not perfect ALL of time.
Only ONE am perFect. Three-in-one. Only HIM say everything right.
But Hulk says to cheap Wallace imitators-- SHUT UP! You yell to yell and hurt Hulk's ears. Use brain little more
before talk. Even Hulk admit bRain good some times. At least once every 10 times, brain is useful. Hulk will
SMASH dumb zeroxes if they are such louzy Wallace copies.
See you on Feb. 3-- but Hulk will SMASH if someone try and make Hulk wear
dress.
□ posted 01-22-2001 03:18 PM LO O
Theology, entertainment, green body builders... now we’re getting somewhere.
□ posted 01-22-2001 04:35 PM LO
Judge the measure of a god by the sacrifice he demands; judge the measure of a man by the prey he selects,
-jason byron huggins
D posted 01-22-2001 10:02 PM |j2]
Hey Wax, great idea! Would that make him "Elder Ass"?
D posted 01-24-2001 09:31 AM 331 O If
Hulk,
I Just had to tell you how great of writing this was -
Banner here.
I just want to apologize for The Hulk's outburst earlier. It's just that sometimes while reading the midrash I get
angry, and-- well, let's just say you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Like that post earlier, it really got to me,
and my... uh, oh, my heart starts pounding in my chest, like right now... and I start to... oh, Lord in Heaven,
not NOW... my head throbs and I start to- start to- UUHHGGGNHHH! ! ! Help, I can't
stop...it...poifwajeioioi;wwwvgsL:KSJDNFIvbjads;IKfbjl;kdsjkbhlfsdnjbKNMBALKnjfk;IA
HRSDgoiuwprhjg;oimnSKVBNM.knxzcvbkjl;xzhcvboiushf;oifszjAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH! ! !!!!!!
Hulk am here! Puny Banner always run away when he get angRy. But Hulk no run away. Hulk is stroNgest one
there is!
D posted 01-24-2001 11:22 AM
Hey everybody!
I just logged on for the first time last week and today was the first time I have had a chance to read this
midrash on pussification. I really enjoyed the first page when their was a ton of arguing going on, am WWII's
responses were hillarious, but here on the 8th page there seems to be no one to argue against. It appears to be
bunch of guys who know each other despite their alias' just e-mail one another and congragulating one another
on their grand ideas or making fun of one another. ( I must admit reformUrass does set himself up to be
slammed quite often). I skipped straight from the first page to the last. Did WWII's unending barrage of insults
and lack of honest argumentation scary away all the fairy boys? If so that's to bad because the questions they
posed deserved some good answers. I've been reading alot of midieval literature lately and it is full of anti-
feminist content. I wonder if when the men had power and droves of children to help them run their farm they
were as happy and well structured as we romantize them to be. Could you have the relationship you do with
The Man in
Black
Junior Member
ReformUrAss
Member
KatieVonbora
Junior Member
Marcus
Junior Member
your daughter WWII if you were a tough laborer always out working the fields and spending time training your
sons to help? OR if we are out drinking smoking and consorting to dominate the world what will happen to date
night with your daughter? Date night? That seems a little efeminate. I like it though I think it's a great Idea and
regard you twice the man for how much compassion you have for the women in your life. I am moved by the
anti-pussifcation retoric and considered myself 100% bought in. I just wanted to pose some questions to start
up some more midrash instead of whitehorserash which it has become. I resent the way my mother wears the
pants in my family and I refuse to let it happen in my own and women pastors, youth group, homo-christians:
give me a *(& A ing break!
Justin
D posted 01-24-2001 12:23 PM O ^
Schaeffer --
I don't live at the Whitehorse. I live in Bermuda. The only Whitehorse we have on the island is a pub. The Hulk,
Wallace, and I meet there occasionally to smoke Cubans, drink guinness, overlook the triangle, and hash out
where all the cojones have gone.
The Man in Black
...Matthew 13:34-36...
D posted 01-24-2001 03:32 PM LiH =H3 ^
Did anybody notice what also is beginning on Feb 3?
The XNFL.
The extreme new football league where anything can happen. None of those pesky rules like unneccesary
roughness or late tackle. Plus there will be a serious cut down on all those cumbersome pads.
Coincedence?
I'd say more like Providence.
Q posted 01-24-2001 05:03 PM L£?] ^
(From remember)
Remember your birth, how your mother struggled to give you form and breath.
You are evidence of her life, and her mother's, and hers.
Remember your father, his hands cradling your mother's flesh, and maybe her heart too maybe not
He is your life also.
[This message has been edited by KatieVonbora (edited 01-24-2001).]
D posted 01-26-2001 01:57 PM [_£?]
WWII / Mark Driscoll,
You may have had good intentions from the start but your presentation was twisted and was not of God. You
have sinned over and over again and have yet to repent publically. You have played the role of God here, which
you have no right to do. You have judged and hurt people with God loving hearts. You have degraded men and
women and turned away non-believers.
You have mocked those with powerful ministries and loving intentions.
It doesn't matter if it was in the name of "love". I respected you opinion for awhile. It's about time though you
repent and start over.
This is wrong.
Midrash has became a safe place for those who tell lies and hurt the Kingdom of God.
Bryan
Administrator
Marcus
Junior Member
Marcus
Junior Member
Midrash has become a place of lies and confusion.
God is not confusing.
This is not of God! Period!
Repent!
In the name of God, Mark Driscoll, pray and repent for what you have created here!
□ posted 01-26-2001 02:13 PM LO] =H3
Marcus-
You forgot to preface your posts with, "In my opinion..." You make claims and accusations without evidence.
Present the evidence to support your conclusions. Or, include the 'opinion' disclaimer.
Also, I would be willing bet you don't even know Mark. Yes, some of the language and retoric of this Midrashic
Adventure has been offensive. But offensive to you? Us? Or offensive to God? Mark Driscoll is the first person I
have EVER met who clearly cares more about obeying, honoring and glorifying God than he does his fellow
man. And you know what? This is SO unusual that it offends people. But does it offend God? I don't think so.
Is Mark Driscoll perfect? He'll be the first to tell you he's not. But is he seeking to glorify God? I'll be the first to
tell you he is. And you know what that means? It means he could give a rat's-ass what you think.
In my opinion,
-Bryan
D posted 01-26-2001 02:30 PM L£?l ^
This reiks of "Cult" ministry and IS offensive to God.
A man who cannot repent for hurting others should not be in ministry. Period.
Hurting others because they are offended because of an opinion. Ok. I can deal with that.
But putting down a persons prayer, not apologizing to a fello human being for innapropriately speaking to them,
using profanity and God in the same sentence. Yeah, those are all wrong and an inappropriate way to minister.
So the man's heart is good. That's just great. So he's not perfect. That's great too. Neither am I. But when I
wrong someone, I epent and apologize to them personally. He hurt so many people with good intentions here
it's not funny. He offended and hurt men and women of God. Men and women who DO live the way he was
trying to present to everyone. He offended God and others.
God can deal with it, others may not be able to.
Why doesn't he at least make a disclaimer and say, "If you are a new Christian and don't wan't to be confused,
and don't want to be offended, then this is not the place for you. This is a place for people who already know
God and can deal with this style of "ministry".
If he doesn't want new believers here, just tell them not to be here.
If he doesn't want people to get hurt because they are not believers, tell them to stay away.
This is my forum too right?
Mark Driscoll, repent and change your ways!
Since Mark claims to be a man of God, I do not need to worry about offending him.
Mark Driscoll, open your heart to God, repent, pray! Pray! Pray!
D posted 01-26-2001 02:39 PM
Not everything is an opinion!
Mark Driscoll, In the name of God, repent for hurting non-believers and leading believers into sin!
Porkfry
Member
Marcus
Junior Member
Mark Driscoll
Junior Member
TheOgre
Junior Member
Mark Driscoll
Junior Member
D posted 01-26-2001 02:56 PM LO ^
What are you doing on Feb 3 at around 10:00 am? If you are interested I would like to take you out to breakfast
and talk with you about Jesus and I would be very interested in hearing about your views on biblical
manlyhood. If you are interested there is this little place I know called the Paradox.
My treat!!!
L8R
Porkfry
I ® 1
D posted 01-26-2001 03:26 PM LO
PorkFry,
I would love to but sadly do not live in your state. I would always be willing to chat over the phone or through e-
mail though.
Let me know.
Peace
D posted 01-26-2001 04:38 PM L£?]
I spent the entire day praying in the mountains.
I repented of every time I failed to speak truthfully to a guy when he deserved it since I began ministry. I
prayed God's grace over everyone who is in sin and unrepentant that I know. I also asked God to clearly give
me conviction about what Fie has for me. I was convicted that I have allowed love for certain men to cause me
to be weak with them and that has furthered their error. I was convicted that I should have been a stronger
leader for my wife earlier in our marriage. I was also convicted that I need to keep a tighter reign on my tongue
because others use it to launch off into profanity that is purposeless and not edifying. I was also convicted that
the problem is much bigger than I ever anticipated and that it will take a miracle of God's grace to change
anything.
I then repented of my fear and thanked God that Fie is my Father and not my therapist. I then drove home after
promising Flim that I would not back down unless Fie called me to. I wish it weren't this way. I wish I could be a
regular guy that everyone liked who told them what they wanted to hear and affirm everyone else with sincere
attempts to make things better. But, God was clear that I would be in sin and become exactly the man that I
currently have my guns pulled on. So, scream away at this deaf man. For everyone else, I'll see you on
February 3rd and we'll get to work...
D posted 01-26-2001 05:24 PM iJH O
Pastor Mark
I don't know your e-mail, your address, phone number, or anything else, so I guess I'll just use this.
I just wanted to tell you that I was greatly encouraged by your Bible study you hold on the SPU campus. I went
to it for the first time this week. It was great to know that you treat the Bible with such respect, and as the
word of God, and not a frog to be dissected. It was also interesting to see how, when I posted on this net that
99% of the people here don't believe that the Bible is historical, God brought me in contact with several really
solid Christian guys.
I don't think you understand, (or possibly you do) how good it is to have an older voice of experience on
campus. A huge problem with college campuses is that the only men around are the profs. There aren't lots of
examples of manly men strolling around on campus. Anyway, your Bible study on campus is a blessing to many
believers there for more than one reason.
- Tim
D posted 01-26-2001 05:33 PM
Thank you for the encouragement. I had the privilege of coming to Christ as a freshman in college. My first
pastor was a man who spent a great deal of time with the colleged aged men, myself being one of them. At the
time I did not understand how unusual it was for a pastor to teach a Bible study on campus and hang out with
poor single men who would soon graduate and leave his church. It made a lasting impression on me and I
benefitted from a pastor who could answer my questions and take a peek into my world. The college campuses
across our nation are filled with some insane idea field-testing and I find that many students are open to
rethinking their presuppositions about life and God but that if no one ever shows up to do so, then they
unknowingly adopt some poor thinking. There is much more to be done, but I am grateful that some SPU
students come out each week to consider some issues of gospel and culture.
This topic is 8 pages long: 12345678 next newest topic | next oldest topic
All times are PT (US)
■ost new topic® post reply
Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Hop to:
General
G=J
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
NOV
I
INTtRNtT A R C M I V I
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- 9.html
1 captures
19 Nov 02 - 19 Nov 02
OCT
◄
2001
19
2002
I
• • - •
i d rash 1 A R s
c
Thread Closed
~ /~7 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
ifo Midrash
hfc 1 General
I Pussified Nation (Page 9)
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 11 pages long
: 123456289 10 11
next newest topic 1 next oldest tonic
Author
Topic: Pussified Nation
Xavier
Junior Member
D posted 01-30-2001 12:49 AM [j5l E3
Hey Spamo,
I bet you're big into the end times too, eh ?
Would you care for a game of Chess ?
Xavier
IP: Logged
Marcus □ posted 01-30-2001 07:44 AM L£2I
Junior Member
I have prayerfully edited my posts regarding repentance.
What needed to be done has been done. It is not necessary to keep those postings available
to anyone new here.
Thank you Mark, for listening to God and searching your own heart.
I'm sure there are those who will challenge your motivations. Satan will attack the same way
he did before. You have too much at stake here Mark and everyone involved in the ministry.
Pray for God's wisdom and the strength to move forward. I will do the same for Marshill and
Midrash.
Peace
IP: Logged
Shibboleth
Member
D posted 01-30-2001 11:00 AM 1031 O
puss-yl (ps)
n., pi. puss-ies.
1. Informal. A cat.
2. Botany. A fuzzy catkin, especially of the pussy willow.
3. Vulgar. Slang The vulva.
4. Offensive. Slang Used as a disparaging term for a woman.
[This message has been edited by Shibboleth (edited 01-30-2001).]
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 01-30-2001 02:00 PM L£3 -d!] ^
Does anybody else notice how much Midrash sucks when nobody is fighting? If there were
more arrogant people with offensive senses of humor like me we could get this baby rollin.
Does everybody realize how dumb they look when they treat each other nice on an internet
billboard?
Porkfry
Member
ReformUrAss
Member
Shibboleth
Member
mikey
Member
BigEddie
Member
- Hello how are you today? - I agree! Great job! - Wonderful insight! - I am sorry! - No I am
sorry! - No... really I am the one who should be sorry. - (together) I love you. (They hug) -
I didn't mean to make you look stupid by stating how stupid it is what you just said. - It is
ok, you just sinned so that grace might abound, (they hug and cry and hug some more) -
I seriously want to throw up from all the effeminacy in Christian men. It is always darkness
but it always appears as light. In the KJV 1 Cor 6:9 gives a list of the lifestyles
characteristics of people who will not be in heaven and that list has in it being "Effeminant".
IP: Logged
D posted 01-30-2001 02:02 PM [_£?]
YEAH WELL SCREW YOU BUDDY!
L8R
Porkfry
0
IP: Loaded
D posted 01-30-2001 02:32 PM
L23I =M
*
IP: Loaaed
D posted 01-30-2001 02:37 PM
'Jj\ H\
9 full pages of anger is not enough, huh? Perhaps you should start the Pissed-Off/Insult
Message Board where the sole purpose is insulting each other.
"Effeminant" men, I would clasify as queers, queens, faggots, homosexuals (even if they
appear macho like the Rob Halford of Judas Priest), Alan Alda, and especially men who like
to sew!
But does it mention anything about Dykes?
P.S. ESAD
IP: Loaaed
D posted 01-30-2001 02:59 PM
L£2
Alan Alda?
IP: Loaaed
D posted 01-30-2001 02:59 PM
L£3
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. " Gal. 5:22-23.
Reform, let's bounce this around. I'm of two minds here about something and I need your
opinion.
Part of me says you're right. Since things have become much more tempered, there's
something important missing. I look at Loving Rage and so help me, I miss the rage. The
anger, the passion, the call to righteousness, fist and all, GOT to me. Made me wake up and
see just how far away I'd fallen. Now that we've cleaned up our language around here and
things are more "righteous," well, yeah, there's something missing. I've had people kiss my
boo boos before, but nobody loved me enough to smack me alongside the head with a 2x4
and tell me to quit getting into those sins in the first place, then maybe the boo boos would
Viv
Junior Member
Shibboleth
Member
ReformUrAss
Member
heal.
On the other hand...
I look at the posts with the real rage in them, some yours, some not, boxing gloves and all,
and I have to tell you that for some of us, some of us who have had love&violence twisted
up in our lives, when we see posts like that which want to "challenge" a man's alleged
softness by beating the crap out of him, well, I don't think you'd get quite the response you
were looking for.
I'm nearly 40 and have been raised all my life as an Armenian. I had an uncaged Calvinist, a
good and solid and close friend of mine, go completely off on me last summer in ways that
weren't good at all. Still wounded, still damaged, and he still refuses to listen to me. Since
then, in spite of him, I've been watching and I've been studying with an open mind. What
has been a drawback for me -- and shouldn't be -- are my Calvinist brothers and sisters. I
watch for the fruit of their belief in their life. Sure, that's no substitute for scripture as the
ultimate test, but I can't help but wonder where the joy is? Where is the love? Where is the
peace? The kindness? Those aren't effeminate characteristics, dude, they're scriptural.
C'mon. Talk to me. Tell me there's more to it than this. Tell me I've been seeing bad
examples. Tell me there's more than pride and rage and the law.
IP: Logged
D posted 01-30-2001 03:35 PM LOl ^[3
Would this be an example of an effeminant man? >>> Mr. Rogers is having a sweater drive.
IP: Logged
D posted 01-30-2001 03:48 PM L£3 □ ^
So ya
Thought ya
Might like to
Go to the show.
To feel that warm thrill of confusion,
That space cadet glow.
I've got some bad news for you sunshine,
Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel
And they sent us along as a surrogate band
We're gonna find out where you folks really stand.
Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wail!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way.
I'd have all of you shot!
IP: Logged
D posted 01-30-2001 04:12 PM L$3] -=0 ^
As you might guess I am one who posts on here from my work. In fact right now I am at
work (yes i can be doing this without slacking). This place feels like the most peaceful place
in world - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ect.. Is it real? Do these people really love
me? What is it that holds me together with you whom I don't even know that separates me
from these close friends of mine? Truth.
Look at the church in general (I hate to bag on the church because I am in covenant with it
but it is often neccesary). On the outside anyone looking into the church could "say" that ail
those virtues in Galatians are present in the church. Christians sure are kind people, right?
But is it a genuine kindness that confronts the false kindness of the world?
My father is the kindest most gentle man I have ever encountered. He is also completely
godless.
It is real easy to forgive your brother and be at peace with him when he never challenges
you or disrespects you when you need it. How many brothers of yours will confront you on
your sin? How about confront you on sin that you haven't committed but they can see you
are coveting? Sin (Adam) loves to aviod accountability. Men love darkness to extremes that
are beyond the imagination of most people. If you knew how much people harbored
bitterness, malice, envy, ect... seeking to plot and plan cause strife in the sneakiest ways
you would desire that the light could come as I do. I ofcourse am a bigger lover of darkness
than any of my brothers which is why I can see people hiding good.
The love I have for those who have confronted me the hardest in my sin is the deepest love
I know between men. It is love that doesn't become suspect when we confront each other. I
can yell at them for not repenting and they don't act like I am breaking up with them or
question wether I love them or not. I have seen unbelievers puzzled by the depth of our
love like they were seeing something different than all the patting on the ass they have
seen their whole life. The majority of the time I spend with these close brothers of mine
looks like those fruits of the Spirit described in Galatians. But when we are working out the
truth we problibly look more like Jerry Springer than Oprah.
The sole purpose of Midrash is to shine the light on the darkness, get the truth out there by
arguing. Unless you come to the internet for your social life? Which is a popular sin in our
culture. I think its gay and leads people into a false reality and draws them away from the
attention they need by replacing it with something false. Why the hell would I ever want
you to say something nice to me on the Midrash! It is so stupid. We are trying to get to the
truth and everybody is wanting warm attention like a bunch of lonely puppies. And as for
"men" who seek this kind of attention and revel in it. Men in our culture don't need to learn
anything more about expressing their feelings, crying and being nice they need to learn
about strength, duty, preparing for responsibilities in their future, ect... With the word of
God as a mirror they should look at their pitful reflection and get up start moving instead of
curling up in a ball on the floor and crying like a child who needs to get spanked. I got way
to much to say to keep typing at work so I will go off more later.
I you really are lonely then come over to my house and I will make you something to eat
and have a beer with you. But enough pouting on the Midrash. I am here to fight!
For your question.
I have had plenty of perverted love+violenced mixed together in my life. If you think thats
where I am heading with what I am doing you obviously don't know me. The gloves things
only shocks people because we live in a post war society where everybody thinks little boys
have no need of aggressive competition. Why do you think men today have so much trouble
controlling their anger? Was it all that tackle football growing up? That one game of "smeer
the queer" that just made um crack. I think we should get a church boxing league going.
So if you want to have a beer or just fight send me an email - reformation2k@hotmail.com
IP: Logged
Inigo Montoya
Junior Member
D posted 01-30-2001 05:03 PM LO] E3 ^
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father; prepare to die.
I can't help but wonder where the joy is?
We can rejoice that God glorified himself through the death of his son, that we are no longer
slaves to sin, for starters.
Where is the love?
"Surely he too up our infirmities and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Where is the peace?
"Salvation belongs to our God." It is not up to our pathetic, sinful selves who would be
nothing if God had not created us and saved us. "It does not, therefore, depend on man's
desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
The kindness?
God is always with us. "Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert
these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart,
whether or not you would keep his commands. He humbled you, causing you to hunger and
then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you
that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the
LORD. Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell these forty years. Know
then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the LORD your God disciplines you."
This might have been covered already, but a fact I will regurgitate here, which should not be
forgotten, is that when Jesus was angry or rebuked people it was always constructive. Jesus
did not just be a jerk because it's fun to be a butthead and piss people off, like we
sometimes do. Some Calvinists are jerks in the bad sense. It is a pity that you have
encountered so many. "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our
dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same
way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things
that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the
other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
[This message has been edited by Inigo Montoya (edited 01-30-2001).]
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss q posted 01 - 30-2001 05:13 pm [2L3 =□
Member
W.W.J.D. again.
What bible have you been reading?
Jesus was very sinical and mocked people all the time. Read the prophets and tell me they
weren't sinical.
IP: Logged
Inigo Montoya
Junior Member
D posted 01-30-2001 05:20 PM L£3 □
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father; prepare to die.
*ALL* the time? He spent a large proportion of his time being cynical, but never without
purpose. And I did not have you in mind at all with that post.
[This message has been edited by Inigo Montoya (edited 01-30-2001).]
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 01-30-2001 06:22 PM HIE O
ReformUrAss
Member
Wax
Junior Member
cell'me
Member
Sorry I am just a loose cannon.
IP: Logged
D posted 01-30-2001 10:09 PM L£E O ^
I finally got rebuked by one of the elders. I needed it to.
Earlier on in the heat of the moment I started bitching about how I do my ministry alone.
I repent here infront of the whole world.
I will not complain again.
IP: Logged
D posted 01-31-2001 09:07 AM L£E
So is this a genuine post Reform? Or is this one of your attempts to sound like others to
make a point about something or another? I am not asking this to attack you in any way. I
am asking because for a while I have had a very difficult time following you. If you yell at
me you are missing the point.
It's easy, either you are coming to repentance due to one of your Elders putting you in your
place, or just as others have recently come to repentance for their actions, you also are
coming to "repentance" to make a point.
This is a BB, not people talking in person. So if there is sarcasm I can't hear it.
D posted 01-31-2001 09:13 AM
IP: Logged
Hey Reform,
I've rebuked ya.
You've needed it.
So, where is the contrition toward me?
Actually, I'm just stirring it up because I had some spare time and thot I would set you off
again. Reform, your fight is commendable. Your slanted view of Jesus (God's) heat/anger is
weak in light of a full reading of Scripture. Admittedly, it is there, just not to the degree of
centrality that you would make it.
Blow it off as WWJD-theology if you want. However, my past experiences with morality-
based, judicial gospel believers is that they demand a focus on behavior that supercedes
faith. And that is a distorted view of God's concern. Our morality is not a basis for salvation,
our faith is. Morality does not necessarily engender faith. Faith should engender morality.
The former is not something to focus on, but the latter is.
If we, in relationships with brothers and sisters in Christ, see the dethachment of faith and
the fruit - then by all means confront. Unfortunately, if this becomes the sole purpose of our
ministry or life then we should be prepared for an unending fight. I, nor you, nor anyone
else will ever be completely out of the darkness. The work God is perfecting in us will be
completed someday, just not as soon as we might want. This is not a free pass to do
whatever the flip we want, but it is to say that we will pass out from exhaustion long before
the fight is ever won. So the Spirit then is our last, best hope. Confront if needed, pray
always, and seek God's will on what next.
Don't just swing at everyone and everyhting because it feels good or seems biblical to be
angry and cynical and wrathful. There is so much more to it all. Press into it and you'll see
that more everyday.
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss □ posted 01-31-2001 10:44 am L£ 3 I O
Member
Commandment number one: You shall have no other gods before me.
Should I be stressing God's character as central? Yes I should.
What is the problem with a portrayal of a pussified Jesus?
Can we ever talk about God's mercy and love without talking about sin first?
What if I walked up to you and said: "I love you so much that I am going to stick this pencil
in my own eye!"
How do you understand God's emotion of love toward you? Faith? Faith in what? Just some
arbritrary thing you stir up if you are dumb enough? No. Faith in the real purpose of the
great sacrifice. Sin.
It doesn't make God more loving to spread his love thin. His love is seen in his very
selective, personal, undeserved forgiveness of absolute sinners. If you looked around and
thought that everyone around was loved by God then you kindof could expect that he loved
you. I look around myself and see mostly people who are about ready to be cast into the
abyss. Then I look and see myself as a worse sinner than everyone else and think: "DAMN!
Why me?"
I will hit on you calling our movement to hold Christians accountable to their profession
some kind of legalism later.
Sincerely,
"The Loose Cannon"
IP: Logged
Max
Junior Member
D posted 01-31-2001 11:04 AM [Ml C3
Reform and others,
Okay, here's one that I want you people to clear up for me. Is cynical the correct word to
use to describe Jesus? From Webster's Revised Unabridged: Cynical: 4. Given to sneering at
rectitude and the conduct of life by moral principles; disbelieving in the reality of any human
purposes which are not suggested or directed by self-interest or self-indulgence; as, a
cynical man who scoffs at pretensions of integrity; characterized by such opinions; as,
cynical views of human nature. From WordNet: cynical adj : believing the worst of human
nature and motives; having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others [syn:
misanthropic, misanthropical].
I don't want to sound like the one to bring warm and fuzzy feelings in here, but my pastor
told me years ago that being cynical was a sin. So, how does this compare/contrast with
ICor 13, where Paul says that "...love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always
perseveres."? If I am cynical (which I tend to be), I consider myself above others. I can
easily get pissed off and start raging about problems I see in various Christian ministries,
but I believe it is better to pray and _work_ for change, than spread the rot of cynicism
around. I just want to make sure we all have a sense of the meaning of cynicism, before
labeling Christ with that term, which connotes a poor human philosophy.
IP: Loaaed
Rex
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 11:43 AM [_3~2l ^
Hey Max -
Cynical: 4. Given to sneering at rectitude and the conduct of life by moral principles;
disbelieving in the reality of any human purposes which are not suggested or directed by
self-interest or self-indulgence; as, a cynical man who scoffs at pretensions of integrity;
characterized by such opinions; as, cynical views of human nature. From WordNet: cynical
adj : believing the worst of human nature and motives; having a sneering disbelief in e.g.
selflessness of others [syn: misanthropic, misanthropical].
Damn rights Jesus was a cynic, ^especially* in the definitions you gave. As if he thought
there was anything good in human nature. As if he ever trusted people's hearts. Jesus being
in very nature God had the most complete view of just how screwed up we are, therefore
was the most perfect of cynics. The key there is HUMAN purposes, HUMAN morality. Why
would God be trusting or respectful of those?
"A talent for accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who have not got it." -
Author unknown.
Cynicism in itself is not sin. All it is is an awareness of how bad things are. A true cynic does
not place himself at a higher level than the things he is being cynical of; a true cynic knows
that he is lumping himself in with what he abhors.
Reform - God is love. He does love everybody. He is not willing that any should perish, but
that all should come to repentance. The problem is that as we continue to reject Him,
sooner or later He will respect our decision and allow us to live (die) apart from Him. He's
not ready to cast people into the abyss because He wants to, but because they want Him to.
Infinite love cannot be spread thin.
In general - I'm still noticing that cell'me and others are still going on the whole balanced
God thing. And to a point, you're right. God is balanced. But think about this: There were
times when God's rage burned consistently against Israel for 40 years, sometimes more.
God's rage has burned against Israel for the 2000 years since they killed his Son, and has
only recently started to turn.
Have you ever realized that God is angry all the time? The only reason we're not all dead is
that he can temper his perfect anger with perfect mercy. Why can't we seek to understand
that side of God for a time?
I'll tell you, if I concentrate too much on God's mercy and love and grace and general
'niceness' , I have completely lost it. I am at a point in my life where I desperately need to
rekindle my fear of God. Not respect, fear. I need to know that what I do makes God angry.
That's the only way I'll get over it.
So please, for the sake of my ongoing refinement, please get off the 'we have to balance
God by making Him look nice' bandwagon. God's mercy and love has given me salvation
and peace; God's anger and justice are what I need to really undergo refinement.
Respectfully submitted,
Ignorantus Rex
IP: Logged
Shibboleth
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 11:55 AM Hi3 □
"A true cynic does not place himself at a higher level than the things he is being cynical of; a
true cynic knows that he is lumping himself in with what he abhors."
I am pretty sure that Jesus placed himself higher than those whom he was cynical of and I
do not think he was lumping himself in with them either.
Perhaps you mean that Jesus is/was sarcastic?
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 12:26 PM L£!
God hates people. (Esau I hated)
I can say it why can't you?
God loves pouring out his wrath on sinners in hell. (I Love Justice says the Lord)
That is the God I bend my knee before and no other god is worthy of worship.
What are we saved from?
Hell?
Like you can just fail in on accident.
Like God runs his creation like a big machine and we can wander off and get caught in the
gears and get chewed up.
God: "AHHH! Where is the button to turn this thing off! I should have been paying closer
attention to them! Those poor things!"
IP: Logged
Inigo Montoya
Junior Member
D posted 01-31-2001 12:46 PM SHE C3
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father; prepare to die.
Hey Reformurass, do you think we have a problem with doctrine here or one of emphasis? In
arguments like this, most people say we have a doctrinal inconsistency but never really
explain why. Or is that really even a worthwhile distinction?
IP: Logged
Mr. Vane
Junior Member
D posted 01-31-2001 01:24 PM LO]
John 3:16
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 01:31 PM L£3 [13 ^Z?
John 3: 16?
Have you read the next verse?
You know the one about those who have God's WRATH remaining on them?
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:05 PM L£3 =0 ^Z?
Montoya -
Who do you mean by "we"?
I am talking about the biblical portrayal of God. If you have a god that conflicts with the God
revealed in the Bible than you have a doctrinal as well as emphasis problem. There are
certain men out there today (who talk suspiciously like CellMe) who have taken extremes in
spreading thin God's love that make them heretics. I have given plenty reasons why I say
this is so.
Because we live in a pussified nation we have pussified the gospel to syncrinize it to the
pussified people who live in it.
1 saw a perfect bumpersticker combination yesterday.
2 bumper stickers =
1. What Would Jesus Do?
2. Mean People Suck!
"I am a jealous God"
- God (exodus 20)
IP: Logged
Rex
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:06 PM [_£?] ^Z?
Hey Reform, as much as I agree with most of what you say, you've got the big hardcore
myopic view of God, only yours goes the other way.
Okay, so you're right. God hates your ass. you're just plain lucky that he hasn't turned you
inside out yet.
I hate to call bullshit, but... bullshit. Lets just throw out the rest of the Bible, then.
You need to grow the hell up. It's obvious from your arrogant parading, preening and
mudslinging that you may think that your study of 'theology' and spouting of related
platitudes and cute little White Horse boxing matches because you've forced someone into
accountability to you and they're resisting cause they're as aware of your dumbass
supremacy as the rest of us somehow qualifies you to make the definitive call on what God
is.
If God doesn't confuse the hell out of you, you don't know Him well enough to have an
opinion.
You have the makings of a Nazi. Get over yourself.
Respectfully submitted,
Ignorantus Rex.
IP: Logged
sr, iff D posted 01-31-2001 02:10 PM LJ31
Member
Rex:
>>God's rage has burned against Israel for the 2000 years since they killed his Son, and has
only recently started to turn.
?????
Where do you get that from? Israel hasn't even existed for most of that time. Do you mean
the Jews? Was the holocaust His great retribution for His Son's death? Has his rage burned
against the Italians for 2000 years also? What about you and me - after all, we had as much
to do with Jesus' crucifixion as "the mob" did.
IP: Logged
Rex
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:19 PM L£3
Shibboleth, I think that being fully man, Jesus was very aware of his own *potential*
shortcomings as a human.
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped;
He made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human
likeness.
He didn't get arrogant about it, he just knew what was what.
Damn rights, he was lumping himself in. In potential, anyway. He did not consider himself
higher than men, or he would have lived his life using tools and methods that were not
available to us.
I.R.
IP: Logged
Rex
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:23 PM L£3
Sniff -
"Israel hasn't even existed for most of that time. Do you mean the Jews? Was the holocaust
His great retribution for His Son's death? "
Every time Israel disobeyed corporately against God in the old Testament, they LOST THEIR
COUNTRY. That's what I meant. So yes, Israel hasn't existed for most of that time. That's
my point.
Who knows about the holocaust? I think that it's a great example of the depravity of man.
I'm not going to read any more into it then that.
I.R.
IP: Logged
Shibboleth
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:28 PM LsLS O
Dude,
Get a grip!
Jesus was/is God in human form but he did not SIN, which by the way INHIERENTLY MAKES
HIM BETTER THEN US! WHy would he lump himself in with those he called hypocrites?
IP: Logged
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:34 PM L23I □
Finally we are getting somewhere.
Everybody pay attention Rex is learning.
Now see I will caution myself not to cry or whine or act like I am being dumped by my
boyfriend.
So Rex, lets get a little more substance to your newfound (and couragous I might add)
stance. You seem to think I have fallen to the other side of the pendalum. Lets just throw
out the rest of the bible? I would but it seems as though everyone has already beat me to
the punch.
You know the bible teaches things. It is not just a bunch of one liner statements you can pull
out whenever your own teachings need some authority to make um sound good.
I emphasize God's wrath against sin and sinners everytime I teach or evangelize. Do you
think I am wrong? I may talk to an unbeliever about sin and not get around to Jesus or his
love. Why do we need Jesus? Why did he come here? Why was he fully human?
Your lips moved but you didn't say anything. Put your cards on the table.
yours truely,
"The Loose Cannon"
IP: Logged
sniff
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:39 PM LO]
Right. Like the time when Joseph screwed up and brought his father and brother in to Egypt?
Where they stayed for 400 years. In slavery.
"EVERY" time is an exaggeration at the minimum - and I think you are reading way too
much into the situation. That type of rhetoric, reading God's emotion into the reason behind
any situation (political, personal, etc.) in the world - instead of His divine plan, is
dangerous. IF you could even read His divine plan in to it (situation X).
Is God less pissed off at Americans because we supported the nation of Israel or because of
our oh-so-holy forefathers than he is at Sudan or Eithiopia? Does God despise Columbians,
but favor the French? Can we see God's favor for a particular people by the health and
wealth that is poured out upon them?
Or can we merely see how the actions of people - of a nation or of individuals - may affect
millions of others?
IP: Logged
Rex
Member
D posted 01-31-2001 02:50 PM LsE?l
Shibboleth -
From our point of view, Jesus was better than us. Sure. Jesus knew it too, but I don't believe
he dwelt on it at all. Jesus knew who he was both as God and as man.
Shibboleth
Member
Rex
Member
sniff
Member
My presentation of Christ as a cynic is in regard to his general perception of humanity, with
which He *certainly did* lump himself. I never said or implied that his dealings with the
Pharisees, etc. were evidence of his cynicism. Those are evidences of his butt-kicking grace,
and keen ability to criticize and correct when the situation warranted.
Every situation does not evidence everything. Stay a while. This is the meat of my next post
as well.
I.R.
IP: Logged
D posted 01-31-2001 02:50 PM L£3 O ^
Hey Reform,
Speaking of oneliners and incorrectly paraphrasing
"5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous
God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of
those who reject me, 6but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those
who love me and keep my commandments."
If you look at Exodus (20: 5-6) God is pissed and lovey at the same time!
If God is a big bad meany why isn't my foot so far up my ass that I can taste my shoelaces?
GRACE!
GOD'S MERCY!
GOD'S LOVE!
Sure he messes up some sinners but he won't be doing that on a full-time basis until the
end-of-time.
IP: Logged
D posted 01-31-2001 02:58 PM LO]
Sniff -
You misread me. I said that every time Israel corporately disobeyed God, they lost their
country. I did not say that every time Israel found themselves without a country it was
because they disobeyed God.
God's emotion in dealing with His chosen people Israel has always been of prime import. I'm
not saying that about the rest of the world. As Christians, we are adopted into the family,
grafted into the tree of God's chosen people (like Israel). To expect that the relationship
between God and other nations is the same as the relationship between God and Israel is
folly. The rest of the world is not God's kids.
I agree though that it is dangerous to try to read God's divine plan into anything, though at
times His hand is obvious enough. Keep in mind though that in order to serve God we need
to be able to see where He is working, so we need to be able to discern that. Sooner or later
we have to make a judgment call.
The actions of people can affect millions of others, I agree. That's how I see the holocaust.
I'm honestly not implying anything with regard to that.
I.R.
D posted 01-31-2001 03:07 PM LJ3I
IP: Logged
All right. The only thing I take issue with, having not the immediate time to verify with my
own Biblical research the statement "everytime Israel corporately disobeyed God they lost
their country", is your contention that God expelled the Jews from Palestine/Israel/their
country because of the participation of the residents of Jerusalem in the death of Jesus at
the hands of Roman soldiers.
THAT strikes me as presumptuous. And what my example was attempting to illustrate was
exactly what you conceded in your last e-mail: namely, that not EVERY time Israel has been
without a country has it been because of God's wrath upon them.
IP: Logged
Rex D posted 01-31-2001 03:15 PM LO]
Member
Okay, Reform -
You're right, and you'll see that in the post you just trashed I was cautioning people to get
the point that we were getting into the other, relatively vengeful, side of God, and that for
the sake of the discussion and the good that it could do that it was necessary to do that.
You cannot present the Gospel without mentioning sin and what it does, and how God hates
it. However you also cannot present the Gospel without talking about redemption.
Redemption could not have been born save for perfect love and the manifestation of Grace.
The view of God that you broadcast doesn't have room in it for redemption. If God hates me
and humanity for that matter he wouldn't bother to redeem us, dig? He wouldn't want to
make me like his Son. He'd want to pull a Jonah and wish we were all dead.
I have known people who have 'come to Christ' because of the love and grace of God; I have
also known a couple who have received Christ because they were afraid of the wrath of
God.
None were effective Christians. Both believed a shallow Gospel.
And, like it or not, I think that that's the half-Gospel you're preaching here. You're losing the
paradox in the fact that you like a harsh, ass-kickin, name-takin, soul-scorchin' God. Your
pendulum is unbalanced too. You're only preaching half the Gospel. It just happens to be
the half that we need to discuss right now, but we need to remember that it's still only half.
We can set aside the other half for the moment, but it's our demise if we ignore it
completely.
Cell'me and his cronies are out of it too, just the other way.
I reject the notion that fistfights and belching and mudslinging and theological acrobatics
make a man. A man should be measured by the way he lives the life he's given. I think that
by spending all our energy arguing gray areas we may be sorting out what we believe, but
playing 'king of the hill' is not making anyone any more of a man.
There are people on this board spouting theology who I know for a fact treat their wives like
crap or play Ahab to her Jezebel. It pisses me off. Being able to argue and fight does not a
man make. Knowing the truth and allowing it to set you free is what does the trick.
I.R.
IP: Logged
This topic is 11 pages long: 1234567891011 next newest topic | next oldest topic
All times are PT (US)
Administrative Options: Open Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Hop to:
General
Hi
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
NOV
I
INTtRNtT A R C M I V I
http://www.marshill.fm/ubb/ Foruml/ HTML/ 000048- ll.html
1 captures
19 Nov 02 - 19 Nov 02
OCT
◄
2001
19
2002
I
- • - '
i d rash 1 A R s
c
Thread Closed
~ /~7 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
fe Midrash
hfc 1 General
I hfe Pussified Nation (Page 11)
profile | register | preferences | fag | search
This topic is 11 pages long
: 123456789 10 11
next newest toDic 1 next oldest toDic
Author
Topic: Pussified Nation
Mr. Vane
Junior Member
D posted 02-02-2001 01:58 PM L23I
i rest my case.
IP: Loaaed
William Wallace q posted 02 - 02-2001 02:07 pm l/H -'O
II
Member Let’s all come out of the closet.
You show me yours, I’ll show you mine.
Todays question, what is the gospel?
And for the love of all that is sacred, don’t duck and hide like some coward (i.e. I preach
Paul’s gospel, or Jesus gospel), bring it strong, bring it clear, and bring it soon. Or, bring
yourself somewhere else to rant.
IP: Logged
Shibboleth
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 02:13 PM LsE?l □ ^
I am so completely lost on this thread. I have no idea what the hell any of you are talking
about.
I think it’s time to take this one out back and have it shot.
IP: Loaaed
sniff
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 03:25 PM L23I
I’d second shibboleth if only because this damn phone line takes forever to download this
thread. Assuming though that you don’t want something canned:
Gospel=Good News.
Good news? What could be good news to both the Jews and the Greeks?
That God sought to reconcile himself to mankind through the death of His son, Jesus Christ:
who, being God, became a man, then became our sin (emphasis on the personal), was put
to death, was buried, rose again, and ascended into heaven - where he has retaken his
place with/as God. In doing so, he promised to return and take His people with Him to dwell
with God also.
Tell that to a non-Christian, though, and you’ll probably have him going cross-eyed. SO: the
slimmed down version for the pre-Christian...
In a more practical sense - I don’t have to feel guilty, I don’t have to live enslaved to my
vices, I don’t have to punish myself for being less than perfect. God already saw me in this
place and said - I will make you whole. In purchasing my life with His own - he took my
guilt, evil, nastiness, faults, and bad name - and gave me a new character and a new name.
The new name and character are instantaneous, it is now a matter of my getting
accustomed to living it. But even there, He has given me help through His word, and
through His Spirit who strengthens. All of this was done through a man - Jesus Christ - who
was God in the flesh.
And if they still don't understand, then I sing them "Jesus was so cool" by King Missile. That
gets 'em every time.
edited to correct tense.
[This message has been edited by sniff (edited 02-02-2001).]
IP: Loaaed
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 03:30 PM L£?l C3 ^
Should we shoot this thread?
I can close it at any time and end the posts because I started it.
Headship is a thread rolling nicely these days.
IP: Loaaed
Rex
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 03:41 PM [_£?]
<handing bullets to William Wallace>
IP: Loaaed
cell'me
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 04:11 PM LOl
why use bullets?
turn that "loose canon" on the thing and blast away, Wallace! (ha)
IP: Loaaed
The Man in Black
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 04:13 PM L£3 =113 ^
Sometimes the manliest thing you can do is take Old Yeller on a one way trip out to the
woods.
IP: Loaaed
radionobody
Junior Member
D posted 02-02-2001 05:45 PM LEU O
What is the Gospel? We are enemies of God, who in his love and mercy sends his son to die
for our sins. He then gives some of us the grace to believe and when we do we pass from
death unto life.
IP: Loaaed
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 05:49 PM L£3 -O ^
Tomorrow after our Fight Club I'll close this thread. So, post now or forever hold your peace.
I'll post the funeral tomorrow.
IP: Loaaed
ReformUrAss
Member
D posted 02-02-2001 06:48 PM LEU □
What has been written is written.
She has fulfilled her purpose nicely.
Put her down.
I posted this scripture on page 3.
I want this to be on my final PN post.
Pay more attention to it this time.
Notice who dies because of what is in their hearts.
Notice who dies with no regard for socioeconomic status.
Notice where the killing begins.
WHO DIES FIRST?
Ezekiel 9:1-6
Then I heard him call out in loud voice, "Bring out the guards of the city here, each with a
weapon in his hand." And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which
faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen
who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze alter.
Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from the above the cherubim, where it had been,
and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen
who had the writing kit at his side and said to him "Go through out the city of Jerusalem
and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable
things that are done in it."
As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing
compassion. Slaughter old men, young men, and maidens, women and children, but do not
touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my santuary." So they began with the elders who
were in front of the temple.
We will have to talk tommorrow Rex. I got to leave now and start preparing for my
headship.
IP: Logged
fr.PatmOS Q posted 02-02-2001 09:57 PM L£?l
Junior Member
Jesus is the unique and complete representation of God.
By means of Christ's death on the cross, God reveals himself with power to exorcize the
satanic spirit of unbelief; and to create faith in the hearer of the Gospel.
Jesus in John's Gospel is absolutely emphatic that his death be known as representative of -
revealing/glorifying - the Father. Christ-crucified is who God is, and what God has done to
reconcile a world which had been held in sin's captivity.
The sin of humanity, inspired by the devil, murdered Jesus. The cross of Christ has exposed
and expunged the poison of sin from within us who believe. The scarred hands of the
resurrected Jesus offer peace and reconciliation to his murderers(we are).
To see the Father and Son in opposition in the crucifixion is to hold the Gospel in captivity
through a dark and ambivalent misrepresentation of God. The prayer of Christ that the
Father forgive those who rejected and murdered him was heard.
Jesus on the cross - and always - said and did what he heard and saw his Heavenly Father
do. He said he was never alone, and that He lived and acted in absolute consonance with
His Father in heaven.
The Lordship of Jesus asserts the definitive authority of His life, death and resurrection
to make God known for eternity. In forebearance, weakness and sacrificial self-giving He
asserts Lordship over all, and claims us in merciful love to be His own. And with the fury of
Almighty God it is becoming, and at last shall be, that every contender, every other
representation, shall be silenced - shall be banished for eternity.
IP: Logged
William Wallace
II
Member
D posted 02-03-2001 03:04 PM L£H =□
Now, after a nearly 2 month run, we will bury this thread. This thread was committed to
deconstruction and ranting. The Headship thread will will now be our primary location for
This topic is 11 pages long
All times are PT (US)
□
reconstruction and repentance in theologically rigorous yet practical ways -minus the
cursing.
"Death - the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening." - Walter Scott
The Burial of the Dead:
Rite One From the Book of Common Prayer
All stand while one or more of the following anthems are sung or said
I am the resurrection and the life, saith the Lord;
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live;
and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
I know that my Redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth;
and though this body be destroyed, yet shall I see God;
whom I shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold,
and not as a stranger.
For none of us liveth to himself,
and no man dieth to himself.
For if we live, we live unto the Lord,
and if we die, we die unto the Lord.
Whether we live, therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord;
even so saith the Spirit, for they rest from their labors.
The Celebrant says one of the following Collects, first saying
The Lord be with you.
People And with thy spirit.
Celebrant Let us pray.
Amen.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 02-03-2001).]
1234567891011
IP: Logged
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Open Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Hop to:
General
±_l
Contact Us | www.marshill.fm
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44b
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
Live Music
Archive
Librivox
Free Audio
Metropolitan Museum
Cleveland
Museum of Art
Internet
Arcade
Console Living Room
Open Library
American
Libraries
TV News
Understanding
9/11